Uni students... risking the wrath of mn..

[redgin]

Firstly, I have had 2 children go through uni and out the other side and I fully understand the emotional and financial aspects.

But

They leave home, expect to be treated as adults (rightly) and have their first taste of independence. After a summer debating the risks of going to uni this year in the middle of a pandemic why are they surprised they have to isolate in their rented accommodation like anyone else? That they have to follow the rules like the rest of the law abiding?

IMO they chose to go, they couldn't have expected normal, so get on with it.

[quote nostaples]'For example, HEFCE data seen by FactCheck shows that at Durham University, it costs about £4,776 per year to educate a student in, say, modern languages, whereas at Sheffield Hallam University, this figure shoots up to just over £7,440.'

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-much-does-it-cost-to-educate-a-student[/quote]
Haha that was over 10 years ago so hardly relevant now!
Time to step away from google........

@Poppingnostopping that sounds great. It would be good if more HE lecturers followed your example

@SueEllenMishke it hasn't changed much in 10 years as you can see below. SPending actually gone down in FE

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46180290

first you say there's no problem with student satisfaction, then you say it's entirely 'systemic'. You accuse me of having 'limited knowledge', lying and having no evidence. Finally, you accept there is a problem. Well, ok then.

I never said there wasn't an issue but according to you we're all shit - that isn't true and I object to sweeping generalisations. I've also offered up some context - there are systemic issues which feed into the reports you've shared. It's a complex issue.

You claim that academics don't care about feedback or act upon it - I've simply explained that isn't true and offered up some examples. You are choosing to ignore them because it doesn't fit with your narrative.

[quote nostaples]@SueEllenMishke it hasn't changed much in 10 years as you can see below. SPending actually gone down in FE

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46180290[/quote]
We're not talking about FE.
FE and HE are VERY different.
FE is under resourced massively.

'Believe me I have no desire to impress you....but you continue to tell yourself we don't care about or act upon student feedback if that make you feel better.'

I have said that I think (certainly hope) you are in a minority.

The idea that students aren't entitled to form an opinion about the quality of their education after a seminar, a week's worth or even a year's worth was particularly interesting. As was the idea that there is no need to make what they are learning explicit, although that might not have been you to be fair.

'At least in schools you don't have students working out how much they 'pay' you an hour and making a complaint because you didn't reply to emails while in hospital - and i quote ' i'm paying your wages so I expect a reply the same day'.''

Er, yep, we get that.

FFS @SueEllenMishke I know about the difference between FE and HE. I said it's more or less the same in HE and has gone down in FE.

Are you as patronising and rude to your students and do you treat them as if they're stupid?

I'm guessing you do.

'according to you we're all shit '

I never said that. If you can bear to stop talking about yourself and your own experience for half a second and accept that other people might just be entitled to an opinion, you would realise that what I said is that many students are unhappy with their experience. And although there are indeed systemic problems there is more that the leadership and lecturers in HE could do to address this.

There are HUGE systemic problems with schools and teachers have much less autonomy than lectureres and universities but they have more accountability and they are more responsive to feedback and I have never met a teacher who thought a student was not entitled to make a judgement about the quality of a lesson for three years or to know what they were learning.

Appalling situation, for all students, on line learning is total crap and this blended rubbish is worse than useless.

My DD goes to Plymouth, her BF goes to Cardiff, the lecturers at both uni's are hard to get hold off, little to no feed back, bth lied about the amount of face to face learning.

Uni's have taken students for a ride and it won't be forgotten, made worse by a Govt that has slope shouldered its responsibilities.

The debt we have landed our young people with is also scandal.

@nostaples

FFS *@SueEllenMishke* I know about the difference between FE and HE. I said it's more or less the same in HE and has gone down in FE.

Are you as patronising and rude to your students and do you treat them as if they're stupid?

I'm guessing you do.

You're the one being incredibly rude. You're very free and easy with the personal insults - I hope you don't speak to your students and colleagues in the same way.

I bloody love my job. I work very hard and care deeply about my students. I've always worked hard but this year has been off the scale and quite frankly I'm fed up of reading about how we're all letting the students down when the sector as a whole has worked miracles.

I'm not saying we're all perfect and there will be students having a less than positive experience and they should take appropriate action BUT there is also a lot of excellent work going on and this despite the systemic issues that are largely out of our control.

What do you hope to gain by posting numerous links relating to student satisfaction? We've all seen them. Our hearts sink when we're read yet another headline that has often been misinterpreted or taken out of context. We read the reports, we act upon what we can and we continue to work on our own internal checks and balances... of which there are many.

What you are talking about is a whole sector change and that needs to be driven by the government.
While students are encouraged to think of themselves as customers and education as a commodity were are always going to see headlines like the ones you've posted.

If you have worked as an academic you can surely appreciate the enormous pressure we're all under at the moment and maybe show a little more empathy?

If you have worked as an academic you can surely appreciate the enormous pressure we're all under at the moment and maybe show a little more empathy?

Personally i couldn't care less, you ve your own union, you ve had your education and are free to move jobs.... not so students, who have signed up for Uni's they can't go too, experiences they'll never have, accomodation that they are stuck with (but don't need) and huge amounts of debt.

But we are supposed to feel sorry for you?

@jasjas1973

If you have worked as an academic you can surely appreciate the enormous pressure we're all under at the moment and maybe show a little more empathy?

Personally i couldn't care less, you ve your own union, you ve had your education and are free to move jobs.... not so students, who have signed up for Uni's they can't go too, experiences they'll never have, accomodation that they are stuck with (but don't need) and huge amounts of debt.

But we are supposed to feel sorry for you?

As I've said I bloody love my job. I don't want people to feel sorry for me but a little understanding wouldn't go amiss especially as pretty much everything you've listed is out of universities control.

I can appreciate that it's tough for teachers at the moment even though they too have unions and are free to work elsewhere.....

Just leaving this here... maybe it might help cool some jets. Martin Lewis talking about why refunds for online tuition are a dead end, basically. I know people like raging against the machine, but academics aren’t the ones who set the system up this way. Most of us opposed tuition fees, marched against them and despise the consumerist system which is destroying U.K. HE, as evidenced by this thread. We’re trying to make it as decent and supportive a place as possible for students , and every single academic and professional services person I know has been working their guts out since March in really difficult circumstances (we are living through a pandemic too!) to do just that.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-guide/

@SueEllenMishke I posted the links because your starting point was that there wasn't a problem, you weren't going to take feedback from 'a random stranger' with 'limited knowledge' and so on. You or your colleagues felt that students had no right to make judgments about the quality of their education. Having scoffed at my supposed lack of knowledge and the idea that students might be dissatisfied, you're now cross that I'm posting evidence for students' dissatisifaction and now saying you know all about this. Having been rude and contemptuous towards me and towards students, you now want empathy. As I've said, you've not done yourself any favours. I work in education and have total commitment to it but there are problems. Denying this and being defensive is unhelpful.

One thing I don't get is why it's ok for teachers to be in schools and college delivering face to face teaching with 2000+ students but in HE lecturers are refusing to teach a seminar of less than 20. Can somebody explain this to me please? Is it because of the age of students so there's more risk of transmission? Even at 6th form?

None of my colleagues are refusing to teach nostaples. Your caricature is incorrect.

@AgileLass it IS the case that some universities are not providing any face to face teaching. Taking criticism out of it, I genuinely don't understand why teachers, even at 6th form level are expected to teach classes of 30+ where social distancing is impossible, while this is not happening in many universities. Can anybody explain?

@nostaples

One thing I don't get is why it's ok for teachers to be in schools and college delivering face to face teaching with 2000+ students but in HE lecturers are refusing to teach a seminar of less than 20. Can somebody explain this to me please? Is it because of the age of students so there's more risk of transmission? Even at 6th form?

Lots of universities are still offering f2f teaching. I've been on campus all day teaching and will be back tomorrow.

The issues are twofold - some universities have been told by Public Health England or their local public health team to move online because of localised spikes - there can be an issue mixing students living in halls with commuter students. Plus if you're asking huge numbers to isolate then online is sensible.
For some, online is temporary.

Secondly, we have been told we have to offer socially distanced learning. This has reduced our room capacity significantly. Lots of universities planned more f2f teaching based on predicted student numbers but then A level results happened and we were told we had to take everyone we'd made an offer to .... some courses/universities saw their numbers rise significantly. Usually this is great news but it's not so great when you can't fit them all into a socially distanced classroom.

We want to teach f2f where possible - we really do.

You or your colleagues felt that students had no right to make judgments about the quality of their education

I have never, ever said that. We simply said it might be a little premature given term only started yesterday for many of us. Give us time to actually teach first!!

But my question still isn't being answered. Face to face teaching is going on in ALL schools and ALL colleges, regardless of where they are and the vulnerability of teachers. Why are the rules different?

Taking criticism out of it, I genuinely don't understand why teachers, even at 6th form level are expected to teach classes of 30+ where social distancing is impossible, while this is not happening in many universities.

DFE guidance is that we have to have social distancing on university campuses. 2m if possible or under 2m with appropriate mitigations (masks etc).

Why are the rules different?

Ask the government and their scientific advisors.

@nostaples

But my question still isn't being answered. Face to face teaching is going on in ALL schools and ALL colleges, regardless of where they are and the vulnerability of teachers. Why are the rules different?

Because the government have made the rules for us. We have to have social distancing in place and a Covid secure campus. We don't have a choice! The guidance for universities is different to that issued to schools.

@AgileLass but why????

Why are the rules different in universities and in schools and colleges?

OK, so nobody has an explanation.