Uni students... risking the wrath of mn..

[redgin]

Firstly, I have had 2 children go through uni and out the other side and I fully understand the emotional and financial aspects.

But

They leave home, expect to be treated as adults (rightly) and have their first taste of independence. After a summer debating the risks of going to uni this year in the middle of a pandemic why are they surprised they have to isolate in their rented accommodation like anyone else? That they have to follow the rules like the rest of the law abiding?

IMO they chose to go, they couldn't have expected normal, so get on with it.

And really degree courses should be even more flexbile such that students can fit them round living at home and working full time (or at least part time).

When it becomes clear that it's a couple of hours online and then you go off and read books and write essays

That sounds a lot like all humanities courses always - a few hours lectures then self study!

Yep @RancidOldHag but there's no pretence at anything else any more. You can literally get exactly the same experience in your bedroom at home and it shouldn't cost 9k.

When it becomes clear that it's a couple of hours online and then you go off and read books and write essays

Oooooh look...another armchair expert know knows very little about how university actually works.

As part of the university validation process all courses and modules have to state the number of taught hours the students will get - deviating from that number too much would be a breach of contract and the student would have a right to complain. All of the students have access to module and course specs so they can see for themselves what to expect and what they have signed up for.

No student is getting just 2 hours online- and if they are they are they i'd encourage them to complain.

If we move online then my timetable stays the same. I will be delivering the same session (adapted for online delivery), at the same time for the same number of hours. The students will get the same tuition and the same level of support.....just remotely.
Do not assume it is poor quality
Do not assume academics are not creative in their online delivery

@SueEllenMishke I am a teacher who speaks to very many ex students now at university each year and I have a child at university and I have friends who teach at university. I am speaking about real experiences, not assumptions.

Plus, I watch, read and listen to the news.

There was an interesting diary from students in The Guardian this week. They were saying most of the lessons they had had were pretty useless. As an example, they spent a lesson getting to know each other when they had set up a group chat weeks previously. That is a prime example of HE lecturers being behind with technology and unresponsive to students' prior learning.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/25/diary-virtual-fresher-university-uwe-bristol

@nostaples - as an academic i agree with @SueEllenMishke. The reality is that this is an exceptional year. on the plus side- most academics have spent the summer thinking up inventing ways of teaching online. arguably a lot more thought went into this year's teaching than usual.

there is also a big difference - as you should know as a teacher -between the 'teacher's' and learner's experience........a satisfied customer is often not the one who has actually learnt anything etc.

Now whether the HE model of fees etc should be changed - of course, but neither the British government or the public were interested when lecturers/students protested against the fees. Yes, arts/humanities/social sciences subsidize STEM/research - but thats the system set up from above not from below.

@nostaples - the get to know lesson is not about students getting to know each other but testing the technology, ensuring that all student are aware of the online etiquette etc....it is also to ensure they get used to having their videos on/mics off - learning how to use the whiteboard in blackboard collaborate, have actually read the Moodle page - know what the assessments are and how to submit them etc. They also need to get to know the lecturer and for the lecturer to get to know the students.

only a small part is about the students getting to know each other

the fact that students didnt get it - doesnt matter - the point is they learnt those other skills not knowing they were learning them

again as a teacher you should be aware of the difference between why certain tasks are set and the way students experience them

'arguably a lot more thought went into this year's teaching than usual.'

That's probably true. Probably not enough though and certainly not enough attention to teaching pre pandemic.

Potentially troubled by your second paragraph as students ARE customers now. They really should be satisfied with their experience. And too many are not.

@nostaples - thats a broader question - do we want them to be happy customers or trained members of society....cos thats not the same thing and am not sure which one i would go for

happy but untrained and in debt is not great - but essentially whats been happening for years....

'he fact that students didnt get it - doesnt matter - the point is they learnt those other skills not knowing they were learning them'

Eh?

Sorry but it absolutely does matter if students 'don't get it' though I'm not sure to what you're referring.

I don't know which skills you think they're learning without knowing it but I would say those should be made explicit.

If students are saying they are not learning much/anything in a weeks worth of lessons then that is a problem.

@zurich09 it really shouldn't be an either/ or

They ARE customers. They SHOULD be satisfied with their experience.

@nostaples - they learnt the skills i've outlined....for them it feels like its about them getting to know each other - but in practice they've also learnt about online etiquette, Moodle pages, blackboard collaborate, how to participate in a breakout group, experience whether or not their fellow students are happy to participate or not, learn about their lecturers etc....................

they need to have those skills in order to successfully move onto to learning more about their subject over the next 20 weeks.

you dont have to be explicit about them - you just need students to learn them

thats the difference between explicit and implicit skills learning

and if you put up a slide to say this is the aim of thise lesson - most students will fall asleep. so you teach them through doing because thats much more effective

@nostaples and they are most of the time ....they just don't learn so much and grades have been inflated to keep them happy......

And by saying it's their fault, you are victim blaming.

What a horrible way to degrade the meaning of that phrase.

zurich09, I take your point about those skills but this group had been getting to know each other for weeks over snapchat - perhaps this could have been established so that the skills you mention could have been practised while extending their learning in other areas too.

'you dont have to be explicit about them - you just need students to learn them'

I strongly disagree with this. And frankly this attitude will certainly explain students' frustration.

They have an absolute right to know what they are being taught/ expected to learn and how this will be measured.

Expecting them to pick up skills/ knowledge by osmosis without making it explicit is just poor teaching.

@zurich09 you seem to be suggesting that students being happy/ satisified and learning being explicit gets is counter to productive learning. Common sense and research indicates the opposite.

I find that attitude more typical of HE and it absolutely explains why students feel dissatisfied with their experience.

@nostaples - learning skills regarding a subject yes we should be explicit - but when it comes to the other stuff. my experience over a couple of decades is that if you tell them - this is what we will be covering - the automatic answer is 'we know it all'....................but my experience is they dont - but then become reluctant to engage because they think they do know about online etiquette, have read the course guide etc....so sometimes it is better to focus on something specific while getting students to learn something else.

and again this is just about one lesson.......the first one which you said was crap because lecturers are behind the tech...we are not - but we need the first lesson to establish rules of engagement and lots of other things before they get into studying their subject.

They were told a pack of lies by the universities and the government.

And university halls are not comparable to private homes. They're actually legally exempt from certain building regulations on the grounds they're not normal blocks of flats; they're typically in the same category as either hotels or care homes. Some blocks still have known flammable cladding after Grenfell happened.

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/11/britains-shamefully-shoddy-student-housing

To the substandard bedrooms, add cramped shared facilities, typically one undercounter fridge and no freezer shared by many people, and in some cases shared bathrooms too.

The commercial aspects of student accomodation conspire against the students too. Many will have signed legally binding contracts before Covid-19 even reached Britain. They, and their guarantors, are on the hook for the whole rent whether or not they move in.

The government told universities they had to reopen fully.

The government runs this country.

The government is blaming everyone else for its own choices.

I don't agree with you about making learning explicit and it is counter to research.

The diary covers a week's worth of lessons which the student found to be fairly unhelpful/ repetitive.

I know senior lecturers who will happily (too happily) admit that they are crap teachers. They don't know how to do it and don't really want to do it in some cases. They want to get on with their research. Perhaps this is a minority.

I'm not sure what you mean by lecturers not being behind the tech.

The whole model of lecture based tuition has been proved to be not particularly conducive to learning. I think online learning will make it better. As you say, more thought has gone into teaching than ever before. But it needs more of a shake up. There is too much doing things the way they always have been done. There is insufficient attention to how and why students learn.