Uni students... risking the wrath of mn..

[redgin]

Firstly, I have had 2 children go through uni and out the other side and I fully understand the emotional and financial aspects.

But

They leave home, expect to be treated as adults (rightly) and have their first taste of independence. After a summer debating the risks of going to uni this year in the middle of a pandemic why are they surprised they have to isolate in their rented accommodation like anyone else? That they have to follow the rules like the rest of the law abiding?

IMO they chose to go, they couldn't have expected normal, so get on with it.

@nostaples

'f you have worked at a university recently you will know how seriously student satisfaction is taken.'

However, if you have turned on the tv or opened a paper recently or if you had a child at university you will know that students are not satisfied.

'First year students haven't had enough teaching to make a sound judgement yet. For many universities term only started yesterday.'

That's extremely patronising. My students, who are younger, are perfectly capable of judging the quality of a single lesson and how much they've learned in it. This attitude confirms my suspicions. Lecturers need to be more receptive to feedback and stop making assumptions about what students think, feel, are learning.

'If you had worked at a university recently you wouldn't be trotting out 'they're paying 9k fees for nothing' argument as you would know it is far more complex and nuanced than that and you would know the politics behind the fees system.'

Again, extremely patronising. I have worked in universities, I currently work in schools. And I have a daughter who has just started in university. I am not saying they're paying for nothing. I am saying the 9k is extremely poor value right now for an arts student. Whether or not you personally agree, this is what many students are thinking right now. You ignore that at your peril.

If you had worked at a university recently you would be displaying far more empathy towards academics and would appreciate the amount of work and effort that is taking place right now.

'You would also be directing your wrath at the government and not the universities as it them that have caused this shit show - leaving universities to take the balme.'

I have a lot of contempt for the govt but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to say that universities should and could and must do more to debate and clarify and justify what they provide to their students.

Not patronising - just knowledgeable and informed.

Every single university I've worked at and work with, takes student feedback very seriously. The student voice is a powerful one. You can't make sweeping generalisations about the quality of HE or even specific subjects with such limited knowedge and experience. You might not think it's limited but you can't possible have working knowledge of 150+ HE institutions.

If a student is having a poor experience there is a well established system in which this can, and should be, addressed. I would urge any student who thinks they have grounds for complaint to take that through their university complaints procedure and beyond if appropriate.

However, the vast majority of universities and staff are working harder than ever to provide students with the best experience they can during a global pandemic and i'm actually seeing some wonderful, creative things happening.
The vast majority of the complaints I'm reading on this thread (and others) are the result of government directives and policy and in many cases it is unfair to place the blame on universities.

@zurich09 I find your cynicism and hostility depressing. I don't believe you are representative of the majority of HE lecturers but you have confirmed rather than allayed the concerns raised here.

I believe it is essential for me to look for and respond to student feedback to improve my teaching and their learning. Students are the reason for teachers, not an inconvenient hindrance.

I would be horrified if my students were saying they were getting 'poor value for money' or that their experience of learning was a poor one.

The system is what it is but as long as you are teaching students you should be working for them and not disimissing their concerns.

nostaples do you know how universities gather feedback from students? It happens in multiple formats, every year. And is acted upon. Mid-module feedback, module evaluations, programme evaluations, NSS, external periodic reviews verifying QAA status which also takes in student feedback.

Academics also have HEA accreditation in ever increasing numbers, and peer observations with colleagues every year.

You seem to haven’t the slightest clue what you’re talking about (beyond saying “I worked in a university” - really? In what capacity and how long ago - and “my dad was a lecturer” - again, how long ago?) so maybe listen to what people who are actually at the coal face are telling you. Not your anecdata based on your daughter and a handful of ex students.

@nostaples - i have never dismissed my students' concerns. your concerns/feedback is systemic and therefore you should address it to the powers that have set up the system. you are aiming your feedback at the wrong people

'Not patronising - just knowledgeable and informed.'

Informed by your own experience. I know plenty of HE lecturers who admit they are poor teachers, uninterested in teaching because they want to get on with research.

'Every single university I've worked at and work with, takes student feedback very seriously.'

With respect, you haven't demonstrated that on this thread.

'You can't make sweeping generalisations about the quality of HE or even specific subjects with such limited knowedge and experience. '

My knowledge is not limited (more assumptions - you know nothing about my experience). If you had read my post earlier you would see that Which and Hepi cited 1 in 3 students being dissatisfied with their experience.

My comments are based on research and real examples. You are saying you aren't interested in even listening to feedback.

One in 3 students complaining about poor value for money in 2013!! www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22484419

Nobody who understand how HE works would post this. They would understand the issues that have arisen when you turn education into a commodity and encourage students to consider themselves 'customers'. This is what people with limited knowledge of HE and the changes it has undergone in the last decade or so refer to.

I am not above feedback but I am not being blamed for government policy. I actively seek feedback on my teaching and the courses I manage as do all academics. It's part of the role and there is no getting away from it and there are consequences of you don't act upon it.

you are talking about systemic problems - am not disagreeing with systemic feedback - am just telling you to go and tell those people who set up/reinforced/messed u the system both in 2013 and 2020 (they are the same people) that students are unhappy. lecturers are unhappy....with the same people

@zurich09 and you really do have no interest in listening.

Yes, there are systemic problems but that doesn't absolve lecturers or leadership in HE of their responsibilities.

Having worked in HE, I currently work in and with schools. There are enormous systemic problems there too. I have less power/ zerio power or control over the exams my students will sit, unlike HE, for example but you don't catch teachers throwing up their hands and saying 'blame the government'. It's a shocking attitude.

'Nobody who understand how HE works would post this. '

Rude and patronising and wrong.

I've set up a forum discussion thread for feedback for my courses, as I can't wait til week 6 when the usual feedback is collected, I've also had some valuable tips on here, I've taken one idea and used it already, and another student has pointed out the difficulties with the speed of online videos so I'm speaking slower. This week, I'm learning how to caption which is not automatic sadly in a lot of video software.

I don't go off what one student says, although I listen to all, I look at the spread of scores and comments, I am evaluated on something like 80 different dimensions for my course so I know the weak spots and things to improve inside out. Not all teaching is high quality in the sector.

Funnily enough I was thinking today about my own experience of being at university. The biggest difference wasn't the format (it was dull lecture without slides and a one hour tutorial a week so identical to a lot of social science courses now), it was how personal it was due to fewer students. It's harder to know students en masse and so some of the opportunities for interaction are missed in big classes. That's not really in my personal control though so I don't stress about it except when the marking comes in.

Every single university I've worked at and work with, takes student feedback very seriously.'

With respect, you haven't demonstrated that on this thread.

What student feedback have I been given? What do you want me to demonstrate?
Do you want access to:
Module evaluations
Annual course evaluations
External Examiners reports
Internal and External Moderator reports
Course Committee feedback
NSS scores
Internal student satisfaction scores
Informal feedback from students and placement providers

All of which take place at my university and have to be followed up with a report from me showing how I have responded to and actioned feedback.

Don't tell me we don't care or respond to student feedback when is clear you haven't a clue how it all works.

In refusing to listen, dismissing concerns, being rude and dismissive, and refusing to or take any responsibility for the student experience, you confirm people's concerns about HE.

You would last less than a day in a school or college with that attitude. The kids and their parents would rightly complain.

I think someone’s telling porkies. Not a hope have you ever worked in HE.

'you haven't a clue how it all works'

Rude, arrogant, dismissive and wrong.

Demonstrating a refusal to take student feedback seriously.

@nostaples - whats my responsibility - to make 9k worth it?? It isnt........except that for a lot of degrees it's a student's entry card into the job market.

i care about individual feedback from my students. if your feedback is that the system is shit -it is but thats not my fault to rectify

@ nostaples - you are not our student thats why your feedback is not being taken seriously.

your comments are largely systemic - but you are addressing it to those who dont control the system.

Demonstrating a refusal to take student feedback seriously.
You aren't a student....what feedback should I be acting upon??

Everything you post just makes it incredibly obvious you've never worked in HE or if you did it was a very, very long time ago. Your references and narrative is just 'off'. Nobody with recent experience of working in HE (especially as an academic or course leader) would say the things you're saying.

'The Student Academic Experience Survey, which has been tracking student views since 2006, shows a decline in satisfaction with value for money - down from 41% to 39% - with another 30% thinking it was neither good or bad value.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52999315

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/26/student-complaints-about-uk-universities-growing-says-watchdog'

'The annual report of the Office of the Independent Adjudicatorshowed that an increasing proportion of complaints were from students dissatisfied with poor facilities, and with course content differing to what was originally offered. Complaints also arose over a lack of teaching and supervision.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34197403

'Firstly, many of today’s students are clearly dissatisfied because they feel they are paying more for a service that hasn’t been improved commensurately.'

www.if.org.uk/2014/06/08/third-of-students-complain-their-courses-are-poor-value-for-money-study-finds/

In refusing to listen, dismissing concerns, being rude and dismissive, and refusing to or take any responsibility for the student experience, you confirm people's concerns about HE.

Did you not read my extensive list of how we take responsibility for the student experience. I run two courses and until recently was the only academic teaching on them.....I've developed them into hugely successful programmes to the extent we've just recruited two new staff at a time when there are mass redundancies across the sector. I couldn't have done that if i didn't take student feedback and the student experience seriously.

You would last less than a day in a school or college with that attitude. The kids and their parents would rightly complain.

Before I was an academic I worked in schools and i'm a chair of governors at a huge secondary school. I've done okay.....

What would they complain about? You have no idea whether i'm good at my job or not.

'Did you not read my extensive list of how we take responsibility for the student experience.'

Ha, ha, ha. Was that meant to impress me? Laughable compared to the accountability in schools.

The fact is that 1 in 3 students is dissatisified with their HE experience from a survey of 10,000 and that number is going up, not down.

'it does cost 9k to educate them - in fact, it often costs more.'

It does not cost 9k to educate an arts student. They subsidise the medics and engineers.

You accuse me of having limited knowledge!

[quote nostaples]'The Student Academic Experience Survey, which has been tracking student views since 2006, shows a decline in satisfaction with value for money - down from 41% to 39% - with another 30% thinking it was neither good or bad value.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52999315

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/26/student-complaints-about-uk-universities-growing-says-watchdog'

'The annual report of the Office of the Independent Adjudicatorshowed that an increasing proportion of complaints were from students dissatisfied with poor facilities, and with course content differing to what was originally offered. Complaints also arose over a lack of teaching and supervision.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34197403

'Firstly, many of today’s students are clearly dissatisfied because they feel they are paying more for a service that hasn’t been improved commensurately.'

www.if.org.uk/2014/06/08/third-of-students-complain-their-courses-are-poor-value-for-money-study-finds/[/quote]
Do you think we aren't aware of these.........
I'm not sure what your point is or what you want us to say? We know there are issues but as it's been explained they are largely systemic and not necessarily the fault of individual academics.

The narrative around HE has changed. Students often think they are paying 9k for a degree. They aren't...they are paying for the opportunity to study for a degree. This mismatch in expectations creates a huge issue and partly explains the levels of dissatisfaction in the (many) links you feel the need to post. As a sector it is important we address these issues but there is also an element of us not really being able to win......

As an academic we look at course level information. That is what is important.

'For example, HEFCE data seen by FactCheck shows that at Durham University, it costs about £4,776 per year to educate a student in, say, modern languages, whereas at Sheffield Hallam University, this figure shoots up to just over £7,440.'

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-much-does-it-cost-to-educate-a-student

Ha, ha, ha. Was that meant to impress me? Laughable compared to the accountability in schools.

Believe me I have no desire to impress you....but you continue to tell yourself we don't care about or act upon student feedback if that make you feel better.

At least in schools you don't have students working out how much they 'pay' you an hour and making a complaint because you didn't reply to emails while in hospital - and i quote ' i'm paying your wages so I expect a reply the same day'.

@SueEllenMishke first you say there's no problem with student satisfaction, then you say it's entirely 'systemic'. You accuse me of having 'limited knowledge', lying and having no evidence. Finally, you accept there is a problem. Well, ok then.