What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

If you want to insist you're Irish because you had Irish grandparents,

Just to make it clear, that's a generic you and absolutely, definitely not aimed at the OP!!!

As someone who grew up in Ireland on and off and then moved back as an older teen (only 1 Irish parent, mixed race) - lemme fell you, NO ONE in Ireland thought I was Irish when I moved back I have an Irish passport but living in Ireland for an extended period as a young adult I was told over and over than I was a foreigner.

Which is kind of fine by me now, I am really - I’m a foreigner everywhere. I didn’t grow up in one place, I don’t ‘look’ like I’m from anywhere in particular. Classic TCK.

It’s all good now but definitely felt like a rejection when I was younger! OP based on my experiences at ‘home’ I would say you are English of Irish descent.

I think it’s where your parents are from and where you’ve spent the most time.

As a more extreme example, My brother was born in Saudi Arabia. He has a Saudi and a British birth certificate but a British passport. There’s no way he could claim to be Arabic just because he was born there. He can’t speak the language, he doesn’t follow the culture and he has blonde hair and blue eyes.

Surely you would have to be born there to call yourself Irish?

From my perspective, I'm welsh (born and bred) but now live in England. My dc were born in England. They're not Welsh, are they?

@Saoirse7 Perhaps try rereading my post, as that’s not what I said at all. I said I didn’t know any Northern Irish people who would call the OP Irish. Obviously many Northern Irish people call themselves Irish! I’m Northern Irish myself as I already said, and at different times have held both UK and Irish passports. Maybe read more slowly next time before you start giving out.

I have an American friend who had one set of great grandparents from Mayo. Her others were Italian. This makes her Irish/Italian apparently. When I queried it and said that surely she was just American she was offended. I really don't understand it. My maternal great grandparents were Polish but I am British. It wouldn't even occur to me to say I was Polish.

That's because American is a political identity, not an ethnic or cultural one. It's not the same as being English or Polish (perhaps it would be like telling people you're a United Kingdomer).

My maternal grandparents were Polish, I grew up eating Polish food and following Polish traditions, living in an area with lots of Polish people, so yes my family tends to say we're Polish-American.

I know Europeans like to laugh at us for it but I think holding onto cultural traditions and identities is part of what makes some parts of the US so interesting and diverse.

I disagree that the OP's question is the same for any other diaspora though, she's explained quite well the political complications in this case.

dreamingbohemian

I don't know why Americans get such a hard time for recognising/celebrating their heritage. I've always taken the "I'm Irish" or "I'm Polish" as just another way of saying what their background is. The US is built on immigration so everyone has their unique own story and I can see what its fascinating from American point of view. Not once have they ever denied there were American though and that's the key point some people missing.

Tbh, this is a minority opinion over here, but I actually think the US does multiracialism and integration better than UK/Europe. The fact that many people in England will tell me I can't be British/English because I'm not ethnically English or have no English heritage what is problematic about European countries in that identity over here is still to many largely based on ethnonationalism, i.e. if your ancestors aren't from here then you're not really one of us.

In the US/Canada though this doesn't really exist as they're nations with an strong immigrant ethos, so if I was born and raised in the US to Irish parents I'd assume there would be a lot less ambiguity surrounding my identity and I would much more readily accepted as an American like everyone else.

Perhaps a simplistic way of looking at it, but I think you need to reframe it in your head OP. Rather than feeling you don't belong anywhere, embrace having two cultures.

I imagine if I met you, I'd identify you as English as that's where you grew up, but that doesn't mean you have to. I imagine you're missing some of the key cultural reference points that Irish people our age have - the leaving cert, learning Irish, Bosco, the toy show etc. But with Irish parents you'll have others, like Irish attitudes towards hospitality, weddings, funerals perhaps.

I know what you mean about British Vs Ireland seeming more important in NI though, I live here now having grown up in ROI and it's definitely more to the forefront to say the least!

Well you're obviously Irishish!

I imagine you're missing some of the key cultural reference points that Irish people our age have - the leaving cert, learning Irish, Bosco, the toy show etc.

Yeah although to be fair apart from learning Irish some of those would apply to my mother who of course who was born and raised in Belfast. Don't get me wrong my mum identifies as Irish and not British but does feel she is distinct in many ways from people in the south and has her own Northern Irish/Irish identity.

I was born and have always lived in London.

My father was Irish. My mother was born in London, but her parents (my maternal grandparents) were Irish.

They lived in Ireland after my dad retired. My mum returned to London after he died, as us kids were all here. My grandparents were here and still alive and my maternal grandmother had dementia so my grandad needed support. My grandparents and mum have all since died.

I consider myself British of Irish descent. I've never lived in Ireland. Currently I have a British passport, but will at some point getting an Irish one post-Brexit.

I can consider myself British but still be proud of my Irish heritage. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Halfpastafreckle.....you have described my upbringing but without the Irish dancing(2 left feet) . I have a strong sense of loyalty to Ireland and am very proud . That said ,If I had to describe myself apart from being a "plasticPaddy", I am London Irish .

Thanks OP :) I agree with you!

I think it is more straightforward whether you are American or not (except for racists who like to accuse people of not being real Americans, but they suck). If you are born in the US, you are American (this is not true in the UK actually). If you live in the US a long time and get citizenship, you're American. Whatever your heritage or ethnicity or religion, you can just be American.

Irish-Americans tend to be very enthusiastic about their love for Ireland AND the US both, it's not seen as contradictory. I can see how that's more complicated if you're talking about Irish/English though.

I've also been confused many times living in the UK when it comes to questions about ethnicity. I was just filling out the form to register with a GP for example, and for the question asking about ethnic background, there are only two options for white people: White British or White Irish. What is everyone else supposed to answer?

Tricky one. I mean essentially it doesnt matter, we are all unique human beings, so in a sense we all have our own little cultural identity.

For example, I am English but from a big Catholic family. I also grew up in a village with it's own (pretty weird) traditions, with a really strong sense of community. I also have a slight regional dialect and use words that other English people sometimes don't understand.

So even though I am as English as somebody from, say, London, we probably lead very different lives - the way we celebrate Christmas, Easter, birthdays, baptisms, first holy communions, May Day, autumn festival etc.

So really, the idea of a 'national' identity is a bit shaky. I'm of the opinion it is mainly administrative and meaningless in any real sense, as everyone 'from' that country will be so different. That's the spice of life I suppose.

I would just embrace your own unique little mixture and take the best from both.

I'm Irish, born and raised and live here still. I'd consider you English with Irish heritage as a pp said.
I know a man who was born in London to Irish parents, lived in London til he was 30, and is convinced he's Irish. He lives in Ireland now. I consider him English. With Irish heritage.
I think your nationality is wherever you are born and raised.

PainintheholeSIL

Do you think that is the consensus view amongst people in Ireland too? Obviously I live in NI but I've wondered if I mentioned if I had Irish parents (I very rarely do) would that change people's perceptions of me.

dreamingbohemian

There should be a "White Other" option, there definitely is one for example on the UK census forms.

@Cybercubed I do think so, certainly among my own family and friends etc.
My mother is English. She had one Scottish parent and one English.
She was born and raised in England and considers herself English.

If I were you I would certainly mention your Irish parents. Why not? You do have Irish heritage.
I have English and Scottish heritage and I tell people that if it comes up in conversation. But I was born and raised in Ireland and therefore am Irish.

My dad was irish, my mum scottish, i was born in england but brought up and live in scotland. I'm a bit of a heinz variety but identify as scottish as thats where i've lived my (almost) entire life.

I meant to add, my Irish accent is softer than others where I'm from because of my mothers influence.
I used to get teased a little about that, I definitely don't sound English but my pronunciation of certain words doesn't match my fathers.
And I was the only child in school who had a (English) grandparent who fought in the war. I've always been very proud of that and don't deny my English heritage at all.

Irish people can be funny about that stuff. My mother used to be asked if she was English or "educated Irish" by Irish people.

I’ve got two Irish parents and think of myself as English, although perhaps with an edge of straightforwardness/bluntness that doesn’t quite fit!

I’ve recently been called a plastic paddy by an Irish lady who lives in England. I wasn’t claiming to be Irish in any way, so I assumed she was just rude.

tiredanddangerous but if you'd had your DC in Germany, and their dad was English, and you spoke only Welsh to them and your hypothetical English DH spike only English to them, and they learnt German at baby groups, toddlers groups, music groups, playing with neighborhood children, at kindergarten and were completely fluent by school age and went to local German school - but you'd only lived in Germany for 7 years and hasn't yet applied for citizenship so they only had British passports - would they be German? Or Welsh? Or English? Or British in Germany?

If I were you I would certainly mention your Irish parents. Why not?

Probably because I suspect if I overly push it people can sense I'm trying to be accepted as Irish in someway which will open the door for the "you're a plastic paddy" jibes, so I don't bother.

I mean I could buts its not usually relevant anyway, very few people know I have Irish parents, only the ones very close to me do. If they want to ask if I have Irish family I'll certainly tell them, but they rarely ask. Usually I just say I moved over here aged 14 with my parents and leave it at that.

@Cybercubed just be honest. Why does it really matter? If anyone is rude or exclusionary because of where you're from, they're hardly the sort of person you need 'approval' from anyway.

Wolfgirrl

Yeah but there's also a political component here and my parents, given they're form very nationalist areas, gives away background and so unless I know who I'm talking to its something I learned to keep private in Northern Ireland certainly if I live in unionist areas. In England I'd be more likely to mention it lol.