What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

@Sarahpaula - Both of these points very heavily say that a woman should not be working, and her place is in the home.

Those are exactly the same points that I posted in my post. They do not state that a woman should not be working. They state a woman should not be obliged by economic necessity to work outside the home. That is very different to stating women should not work outside the home.

We're in full agreement that Dev was a misogynist, and probably believed, in common with very many men of that era, that a woman's place was in the home. However, that doesn't mean the constitution states that a woman should not work outside the home.

The longer I live the more I think that special consideration should be given to a parent who wishes to spend time as a homemaker, be it a mother or father. It has long since been recognised that no-one can do it all. I see it on here all the time. Most people agree that it is difficult to get a good balance between work and home life.
No-one should be required to give up their job and if it doesn't suit a family or individual by all means both parents should have equal shot at a career but if the world was a little less judgemental about SAHPs and the government was more inclined to financially support it in the early years I think everyone, men, women and children would be better off.

@Shinygoldbauble - The longer I live the more I think that special consideration should be given to a parent who wishes to spend time as a homemaker, be it a mother or father.

Which is exactly what the constitution set out to do, albeit within the genderised norms of its time, as the notion of a father staying home would not have been imagined possible.

@Sarahpaula - And when I go away to other countries and then come back to Ireland, I do feel a lot more disrespect and nastiness from the men in Ireland towards women, then I do in other countries.

I have travelled quite a bit and I completely disagree with you. There are misogynistic gits in Ireland but they are no more common than in any other western country.

There is just a level of disrepect of women that still permeates throughout Ireland

Your social and work circles are obviously very different to mine as I have rarely experienced this.

@SarahPaula

Both of these points very heavily say that a woman should not be working, and her place is in the home.

• in fact, to the contrary, both of those points in the constitution have lead to equality for women in the workplace post maternity leave and also, if chosen, a small income by way of child benefit to the mother.

It was never intended to be exclusionary and is not in its pure form. It may have been extrapolated as such, but it isn't. It recognises the undeniable right of a woman to be a home-maker or SAHM.

@Howallergic you are completely and totally wrong. There are many accounts from people who were alive at the time, who said that Dev wanted to control women, and he wanted to stop women working, and that is why he put those two points into the constitution.

Again there are many accounts from people who said That Dev wrote these points in a nice way to pretend that they were for women's benefit, when he actually wanted to control women and restrict women's rights.

@OchonAgusOchonO what about the 80% male government in Ireland?

We are far behind many other countries in that aspect. It is strange in a developed country in 2020

We are far behind many other countries in that aspect. It is strange in a developed country in 2020

We have had 2 female presidents and an openly gay Taoiseach.
And passed the marriage equality by popular vote.
@Sarahpaula we are actually quite progressive considering how backward we where.

We have room for improvement but so does any country.

@Sarahpaula - you are completely and totally wrong.

It doesn't matter what he wanted. The wording in the constitution does not, and never could, prevent women working outside the home.

@OchonAgusOchonO The first week I arrived back in ireland, I was walking down a street and a man shouted at me "i would suck the tits of you".
In my work circle in Ireland I heard my male colleagues say to each other "who is your ideal fuck" and one say "mine is miriam o callaghan. And if her pussy was too loose, I would fuck her up the arse". (The apparant joke was that it might be loose because she has eight kids).

My friend said to me that her male boss says inappropriate sexual comments to her all the time.

I was in a bar and I heard men debating whether they would fuck mary lou mcdonald (politician), and one man said "you would have to bend her backwards on the bar to get at the gash on her".

So it is not just my own social circle. I have heard strangers disrespect women, and I have friends telling me about men disrespecting them. There is a lot of it in ireland. This is just on the disrespect front. I could talking about all the women that I know that have been raped in Ireland, but i will get too sad. I will keep fighting for women's rights in ireland anyway

@Sarahpaula what about the 80% male government in Ireland?

According to this EU source, it was 24.3% female in 2019. I think it's slightly lower in the current Dáil. Yes, it's pretty poor but so are most countries. A more family friendly set-up in the Dáil would help.

We are far behind many other countries in that aspect. It is strange in a developed country in 2020

There are a lot of other countries in that list lower than 30% so while we're certainly a lot lower than I would like, I think "far behind many" is an exaggeration.

So it is not just my own social circle. I have heard strangers disrespect women, and I have friends telling me about men disrespecting them. There is a lot of it in ireland. This is just on the disrespect front. I could talking about all the women that I know that have been raped in Ireland, but i will get too sad. I will keep fighting for women's rights in ireland anyway

There are misogynistic assholes in every country. There is absolutely no way any of the men I work with would speak like that. Equally, I tend not to go to bars those type of knuckle-draggers frequent.

Rap is, unfortunately, way too common everywhere. It is not exclusive to Ireland.

Yes, you need to continue to fight for women's rights. However, it is the same in all countries.

That's disgusting

This is a thread about what comprises your nationality, specifically wrt Irish nationality.
All I can see for the past 20 pages or so is people trying to criticise Ireland and Irish people. It's so fucking blatantly bigotry.

Amen to that, Howallergic.

There are many accounts from people who were alive at the time, who said that Dev wanted to control women, and he wanted to stop women working, and that is why he put those two points into the constitution.
@Sarahpaula
Do you realise that hardly any state in the western world countenanced employment of women after WW1? There were marriage bars everywhere in most professions. Men (and plenty of women) spoke openly about the necessity of this. The idea of women holding economic power was abhorrent. Soviet Russia, where women worked, was held up as an example of the evil of sex equality and yet another reason to fear godless Communism...

You are talking as if this was a peculiarly Irish thing.

We're in full agreement that Dev was a misogynist, and probably believed, in common with very many men of that era, that a woman's place was in the home. However, that doesn't mean the constitution states that a woman should not work outside the home.

YY to this ^^

I'm mid-40s and was never taught at home or school that De V. was a hero.

Mid 50s here.
Same.

This was true of history studies all the way through school, and especially at university level, @Sarahpaula.

We’ve always been taught it’s where you were born is your nationality. My mums parents were English and irish and by dads parents were Both Indian. We’ve always said we have Indian and irish blood but that’s it.

www.motherandbabyhomes.com/

Big round of applause to Britain for liberating unmarried mothers from shame c. 1900.

Premarital pregnancy was heavily stigmatized and provoked issues around sex, morality, religion and authority both parental and community. While there were women who birthed and raised their illegitimate children, there were many who were feared to have brought shame upon the family and quickly ushered into the confines of a Mother and Baby Home to hide their pregnancies. Often orchestrated by social workers, or parents of the young woman, many were pressured into giving their children up for adoption with an all-time peak in 1968 of adoption orders granted in England, 16,164 in all. Young women feared the ‘private punishment and public humiliation’ which accompanied illegitimate pregnancy, and with little information on alternative options they conceded to their perinatal penalty.

The current disparagement of single mothers as part of the public discourse on welfare is evidence that while homes may be shut and relinquishing babies at birth isn't considered the right thing to do any more, the topic is still a hot button issue, with many coming down on the side of punishment in various forms.

...the automatic confinement of pregnant girls & forced adoption of their babies was not procedural any more.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...

Hair splitting, much?

1 I can only imagine the reaction if we said, 'This shite about the empire is just a stick to beat the English with. It was the fucking government and wealthy elite'.

2 No more my responsibility than the laundries are yours

Make up your mind, @Wolfgirrl.

@Wolfgirrl

Poverty in England in the 18th Century

In the 18th century probably half the population lived at subsistence or bare survival level. In the early part of the century, England suffered from gin drinking. It was cheap and it was sold everywhere as you did not need a license to sell it. Many people ruined their health by drinking gin. Yet for many poor people drinking gin was their only comfort. The situation improved after 1751 when a tax was imposed on gin.

In the 18th century craftsmen and laborers lived in 2 or 3 rooms. The poorest people lived in just one room. Their furniture was very simple and plain. Despite the improvements in farming methods during the 18th century food for ordinary people remained plain and monotonous. For them, meat was a luxury. They lived mainly on bread, butter, potatoes, and tea.

During the 18th century the Poor Law continued to operate. In the 17th century, there were some workhouses where the poor were housed but where they were made to work. They became much more common in the 18th century.

I am interested to know where you found this piece of simplistic tripe.

If this is the standard of fact-poor, nuance-free history you rely on to inform your posts here, then it explains a lot.

In the early part of the century, England suffered from gin drinking

I haven’t heard that phrase recently - should I have?

@MMN123

Yes, you absolutely should have heard the phrase 'hostile environment'.

theconversation.com/hostile-environment-the-uk-governments-draconian-immigration-policy-explained-95460
The basic idea behind the hostile environment has two components. First, the burden of proof shifted. Any non-British passport holder was assumed to have violated immigration rules until proven otherwise. Deport first, appeal later. Second, knowing that border controls are only one element of immigration control, the policy shifted to internal controls. This meant that migrants must prove their right to reside at every turn. When they sought medical treatment, rented a home, applied for a driving licence or got a job, they faced immigration checks. Immigration control now extends far beyond the border

www.jcwi.org.uk/the-hostile-environment-explained

blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/07/23/the-uk-governments-hostile-environment-is-harming-public-health/

Does it remind you of another time and place?
(Hint - no, not Ireland.)