What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

Wolfgirl - what answer/question have you asked?
This is not your fucking thread.
I suggest you start one with your own quibbles because you're totally irrelevant and off topic on this one. You've had several posts deleted and yet MN haven't banned you yet. Why?

@Howallergic

It isnt your thread either. I left it for days, but math decided to tag me in a huge essay. So, here I am responding to it...

My question is why are the Irish excused from acknowledging their history due to the fact it is always someone else's fault or the majority of Irish did nothing wrong, yet the English are not excused when the same reasons apply to them?

What your question is, is irrelevant to the OP.

Start your own fucking thread. For the love of God.

Back to the OP, I've a really good friend who I met in London, who was born in England, to two Irish parents.

When I'm describing him to others, in beautifully circumspect language (or is it specific?) I describe him as 'He's English, but he's Irish, like his parents are Irish'. That's how I describe him. Haven't asked him how he sees himself, probably Irish/English?

Start your own fucking thread. For the love of God.

You say when you are lost for words...

The UK had the experience of being on the thin end of the Nazi wedge and the knowledge of Nazi concentration camps as a reference point. But that was all other people's misdeeds, which could all be blamed on the fact that the offenders were Huns.

There is certainly, and rightfully, horror and condemnation regarding the Nazi concentration camps. However, there seems to be little mention or knowledge of the concentration camps run by the British during the Boer war, which were very much British misdeeds.

@OchonAgusOchonO

No more my responsibility than the laundries are yours.

No more my responsibility than the laundries are yours.

Where did I say it was your responsibility?

In Ireland, we have recognised the mistakes (and the horrors) associated with the launderies. Women have been compensated, although nothing could adequately compensate them.

I am not aware of recognition or compensation in the UK for the similar homes for unmarried mothers.

@OchonAgusOchonO

In Ireland, we have recognised the mistakes (and the horrors) associated with the launderies. Women have been compensated, although nothing could adequately compensate them.

Oh yes, when was that recognition again? oh yes 2013. With no payments made until 2019, and only one lady has received the full amount possible.

The English laundries were mostly gone by the end of the 1800s. There were still workhouses, as in Ireland, but the automatic confinement of pregnant girls & forced adoption of their babies was not procedural any more. So very sadly, most of the women that would be entitled to compensation are dead.

Whereas the last laundry in Ireland closed in the 1990s. Many of the survivors and their children are still alive, hence they could be apologised to.

I'm sure you can come up with something to get Ireland off the hook here, and conclude that England was worse?

Whereas the last laundry in Ireland closed in the 1990s.

Except they were not operating as homes for pregnant women at that stage. The only women in them them were elderly women who were so institutionalised that they would not be able to live independently. Absolutely tragic certainly but not exactly the scene you are setting. As usual, you distort the facts to suit your anti-Irish agenda.

The English laundries were mostly gone by the end of the 1800s.

I specifically said UK, not England, and homes for unmarried mothers, not laundries.

Many of the irish posters have posted far more than me. They must really hate the English
Have you even read the title of the thread @Wolfgirrl?

I'm sure you can come up with something to get Ireland off the hook here, and conclude that England was worse?

You have as well 😂😂😂😂😂😂

A dash of semantics here, a bit of fact distortion here, and BINGO! Ireland off the hook again.

And you say we are in denial about history!

Btw, you're wrong about the 90s:

www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-last-of-the-magdalenes-the-nuns-took-my-childhood-1.3515146

A dash of semantics here, a bit of fact distortion here, and BINGO! Ireland off the hook again.

You're obviously incapable of parsing basic English as you seem to struggle to comprehend what is written.

And no, I'm not wrong about the 90's. The launderies were not operating as institutions for unmarried mothers at that time. Perhaps read the article you posted a link to?

Not forgetting this more unknown atrocity...

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/12/symphysiotomy-irelands-brutal-alternative-to-caesareans

Wolfgirl - if you must, England’s homes for unmarried mothers shut in the 1980s, so also recent history.

I understand your argument to be that England should not have to apologise for any aspect of its history as every country has done bad things. Particularly Ireland which is the worst of them all for having a policy of neutrality.

What is laughable is people from two very similiar neighbouring islands arguing with each other.

Here is something I would like to talk about it. I grew up in Ireland being told that Eamoj deValera was a hero. I was watching a lot of documentaries about him last week, and it said that he personally set women's rights back in Ireland a lot.

It said that before devalera came along, women had more rights. Then deValera got into office and wrote Ireland's constitution with the archbishop of Dublin and immediately took a lot of women's rights away in Ireland. This constitution affected women in Ireland for most of last century.

It said that deValera's own mother had worked (she was American), and he didn't like that his mother had worked and left him as a child, so he wrote a constitution for Ireland banning women from working, once he got married. This remained in place until the 1970's.

Isn't it interesting that one man's issues with his mother, affected women's rights in Ireland for nearly 70 years.

And still we have problems with women's rights in Ireland in 2020, due to the constitution written by devalera and the archbishop of Dublin, John charles Mcquaid, who hated women and was accused of abusing children.

So Ireland's constitution was written by Eamon deValera - who wanted to control women because his own mother left him, and John Charles McQuaid - a paedophile who hated women

No wonder the whole country is fecked up for women

Dev was seen as extremely regressive and socially conservative when I was a child (he was president at the time). Certainly, the leaders of the fight for independene had a more progressive vision.

so he wrote a constitution for Ireland banning women from working, once he got married.

The constitution did not ban women from working. It recognised the "special place of women in the home".

Article 41.2 states:
1. In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.
2. The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Certainly regressive in through a current day lens but it was of its time.

@OchonAgusOchonO. Read this article below. The Irish government did ban married women from working.

The Bar after Independence

"Irishwomen’s access to employment and equal treatment at work worsened following Independence in December 1922. Within the first year, legislation removed a widow’s right to get back her civil service job on the death of her husband. From 1926 the Minister for Finance was given discretionary power to hire married women to the civil service, but only in exceptional circumstances and only on a temporary, non-pensionable contract.

In 1941 the Local Government Act gave the Minister for Local Government the power to make regulations disqualifying married woman from applying for vacancies in local authority services. It had been practice since Independence that in order to qualify for jobs women had to be unmarried or widowed."

I am angry at Eamon deValera and John Charles McQuaid for causing so many problems for women in this country.

What angered me even more, was seeing in the documentary that women's rights had been had actually been okay ish before independence, and then after independence deValera decided to take loads of rights away from women. He abused his power and caused so many problems for women.

How old are you @Sarahpaula?
I'm mid-40s and was never taught at home or school that De V. was a hero.

Also, as an Irish woman I don't feel that 'the whole country is fecked up for women'.
The women I know are for the most part well-educated and a mix of SAHMs, part time workers or full time. We are nurses, teachers, doctors, science graduates, creatives, social workers, civil servants, retail workers, carers and many other things. Some have kids, others don't. I know women in same sex marriages, single women and married women.
Of course there are women struggling, in abusive relationships, poorly paid etc just like in most societies. I don't feel we are a particularly downtrodden bunch.

@Sarahpaula - Read this article below. The Irish government did ban married women from working.

Yes, they, in common with many other countries, had a marriage ban in place for public employment. The ban was in place before independence and continued after independence.

However, the constitution did not, as you claimed, contain a ban on women working after marriage.

@OchonAgusOchonO

The constitution says

1. In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.
2. The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Both of these points very heavily say that a woman should not be working, and her place is in the home.

@OchonAgusOchonO anyway I am not going to argue with you about the minutae.

I know that dev did a lot of damage to women in ireland and I am angry about that

@Shinygoldbauble I agree with you that women can achieve many things in Ireland.

However, still not in politics.

Ireland has an 80% male government.

And when I go away to other countries and then come back to Ireland, I do feel a lot more disrespect and nastiness from the men in Ireland towards women, then I do in other countries.

There is just a level of disrepect of women that still permeates throughout Ireland