I have zero authority

[ChiaWatermelon]

Hi,

Mum of two boys here, aged 8 & 18. Looking for some help and advice on how I can become a stronger mother with some authority in my house.

I love both of my sons to bits, and I wouldn’t change them for the world, but sometimes I feel bullied and manipulated, DS (18) isn’t too bad, DS (8) is the problem, I have tried to ignore it hoping that he will grow out of it.

He is very well behaved at school, but at home he is a completely different person

He is miserable, he is always moaning about something.

He is an extremely fussy eater, take this morning for an example, he asked for a salmon cream cheese bagel once out in front of him he decided he didn’t want it.

Since being off school he has refused to join in on the online classes (at the start of the pandemic, the school ordered for every child to get dressed and attend online assembly, he did it the first day then decided that he wasn’t going to do it again)

It’s been a struggle to get him out of the house for daily exercise and supermarket trips, he just sulks the whole time I find myself bribing him with amazon credit.

The list goes on.

OP, how did you react to the ironing thing? I think I would've burst into tears, and probably been so angry I'd have had to leave the room for a bit to calm down.

I also don't think I physically could pick them up straight away - it would feel like humiliation.

OP,

I can see that you are trying but I still feel you need some thought adjustment. What do you mean you d8dn't make anything special but just plain chicken, veg & potatoes? Can your DS1 cook...if so, let him do it for all 3 of you some eve & let DS2 help with clean up after.

Your kids are spoilt it seems & do not like the word 'No' or being refused what they want/like.

I wouldn't put up with my ironing been thrown but then again, I wouldn't have to post about what to do next. You immed say 'Unless that is picked up & put back neatly where it was, you will not be getting Switch (or any gadgets) today or tomorrow. If there is more bad behaviour or rudeness/backchat, you will not have the gadgets until Sat. If you want them back, you need to behave'. You need to have it like a mantra...no engagement, no debating the fairness of it. You are in charge here, you tell him the rules, & when he breaks them then there are consequences.

I used to take my son's gadgets in my car to work because he would look high & low for them. He'd be laughing about it by the time I was home cos he could never find them. To this day he laughx at the idea I had them in the car. So I would ask that dishes not be left in sink...there they are not tidied up & waiting for me so I'm taking Nintendo...& so on it went. I would take tv cable to work, PS controls...then it was mobile confiscated! It was for relatively minor stuff but still you have to show them you mean business.

I commend you on the little attempts but I still think OP that you need professional help. You need to phone that family counsellor asap. For all 3 of you. Please do it first thing tomorrow.

@Fiddlesticks345 - I agree, nastiness is not helpful... but I really think this OP is struggling beyond having just a few bads days. Professional help is needed here to safely establish boundaries...once the structure is there & OP given the tools to use, then I would have more faith that it can be turned around without more stress all round. It is fine for OP post with her updates & baby steps are good but more positive solid firm action is needed. It is frustrating & discouraging to read about violence against an 8 yr old with zero consequences & all the other bad behaviour with all concerned & reasonable MN posters considered advice consistently ignored.

@CharlotteCollinsneeLucas

Didn’t really react, I’m used that kind of nonsense.

@Sion how do I even mention counselling to the boys?

@ChiaWatermelon if you speak to the family counsellor on your own first they will have ideas for how to broach the subject with your children. But it fits with your new attitude of "This is serious and has to stop, it's hurting all of us"

I prob will be corrected here by those more knowledgeable in this area, which is welcome...but I think maybe find a counsellor that you are comfortable with, explain your family dynamic...I think a family counsellor will identify very quickly where you need help. Also will help you deliver the message that you, and all 3 of you as a family, need to get on board with this. Eldest at 18 might scoff at it...or maybe he might just think it is a good idea. Why does the idea of raising that subject cause you alarm or concern? I'd be running in the door of the family counsellor's practice the very next morning after DS1 flung DS2 against the wall or cupboard, can't rem detail... in fact, DS2's whinging & sulking & poor behaviour (controlled & directed at you & DS1 & usually only at home) would have had me a regular at parenting & family therapy sessions. If you don't have the tools, you need to learn & for that you need a teacher. I saw ypur post that your DS2 would not behave badly in front of your Mother... did you not learn at all about discipling children from her when you were growing up ? Regardless, get started on learning from a pro now.

I do really think you need some individual counselling. I've read the whole thread (and commented) and I've begun to wonder what your own childhood was like. You mentioned that your son would never misbehave for your mum, is she a disciplinarian? I'm also struck by how low your self esteem is, you allow your boys to walk all over you. Tiny steps but you can get there.

You mention that your son would never misbehave for your mum
I noticed this too - what is different between her parenting style and yours?

You’re doing a good job with the 8yo op, the bad behaviour is an adjustment not forever. I do think family counselling will help.

The 18yo... too precious to eat chicken and veg. Hopefully one day he looks back at himself now and thinks thank god I grew up. Let him order Deliveroo, but if you ever have to pick up his dishes from it tell him next time that happens he’ll have to eat his takeaway out from now on, not in your house. You would clean up if he were feeding everyone but it doesn’t sound like he’s lifted a finger for you in a long Long time.

Your 18yo is a brat turning his nose up at perfectly good food. Some families are struggling to have even basic food supplies atm, maybe volunteering in a foodbank would be enlightening. He knows that behaviour would trigger ds2 and have consequences for you. Hope you have kept it aside for today.

@LIZS

Morning,

I really don’t care if he turns his nose up at my food because I won’t be cooking something else to suit him.

DS(8) has woken up very miserable as per usual, I’ve told him that we will be doing school work at 9oclock and if he refuses there will be consequences.

"Consequences" being what exactly? You do need to be specific ie. An hour work is 15 minutes on a device at 4pm.

Is the crying from genuine distress or in an attempt to persuade you to give in? Is the work suitable for his ability?

Is the crying from genuine distress or in an attempt to persuade you to give in?

It'll be the latter. He's throwing everything he can at derailing his new world order. If the teacher has set it, he should be capable of it. If he needs help, he should ask. I would remind him to ask if he needs help but would definitely not ask whether the work is too hard as, odds are, he'll seize that and use it as his new excuse.

he literally cried whilst he was doing the second and third half.

Another fail.

DS(8) has woken up very miserable as per usual, I’ve told him that we will be doing school work at 9oclock and if he refuses there will be consequences.

How about telling him that if he does do it, there will be a reward? If he does it, he can have some time on his Switch? I'm a teacher, threats of punishment and consequences are not the way to go about this.

The natural consequence to that is that, if he doesn't do it, he doesn't get his switch back.
You're still maintaining a power dynamic, just this time you have the power. What you need to do is remove the power dynamic altogether.

What you are demonstrating here is the weakest, aleast effective, most damaging styles of parenting.

I would tend to agree with you. But given he has done nothing for at least 6 weeks he may have missed part of the topic and have gaps. I also meant from op observation, not to ask ds2.

I can't believe there have still been no consequences for you son assaulting his brother. You would be in serious trouble if anyone found out about this. Tell older DS that if he (as an adult) hits an 8 Yr old again you will call the police and mean it.
As for the 8 Yr old, he sound very unhappy (as well as spoilt). I wouldn't force everything at once. Try something he wants to learn first. Going from no school work to forcing hours is a recipe for disaster. Same for the food and walks. Why cook things they don't like? Don't pander to them by cooking lots of different things but couldn't you all meal plan together? Make cooking together a fun thing--start small with cake or something.
Ditto the walks. Does he enjoy bike riding? Getting out is key but forcing him to walk (at first) is making it a chore. Try to change the narrative here as everything sounds like punishment.
Why not meet your mum in the park with DS? or play football? Tennis?
DO NOT SEND DS TO YOUR MUMS. That shows that you just cannot be bothered to parent and he will always know this.

@Whaddyathinkofthis

The problem is that the starting point is that ds2 has free access to multiple devices and tv in his room. He believes they are his right rather than a treat/reward to be deserved. Op needs to shift her and his mindset on this.

@LIZS

Crying because he didn’t want to do the work.

I find my child moody with to much internet use age so I limit it
Did you wrap the bagel for his lunch?
Your serving him food like he's allowed to play you and waste.. why?
Is he fit and healthy?
Do you have a variety of stimulation including physical exercise at home
Something I learnt at the parent teacher meeting.. it is consequences they use I think it's a great idea
Although it works easily for a teacher than a parent.
I just read your "dread to think what he would do if you took away devices"
Well you shit the door tell him to grow up and grow some respect in your house
The last thing we need is another arrogant male in this world! Hello

The problem is that the starting point is that ds2 has free access to multiple devices and tv in his room. He believes they are his right rather than a treat/reward to be deserved. Op needs to shift her and his mindset on this

She needs to shift her mindset on it, I agree.

But, as she is already making changes, it would be more sensible to make the 'right' changes rather than just make different wrong ones.

Pretty much every approach she has taken so far has been wrong and she should have done the opposite. All she's doing currently is moving from one unhealthy approach to another.

Half an hour of online learning (as you can see he is cooperating for once)
60 minutes of paper based learning

Break until after lunch

Does that sound ok?

What I've recommended to my parents, if the children are reluctant or have difficulty focusing for long, is half an hour followed by a 5/10 minute break.

So, I'd give him a 'comfort break' (loo, drink, leg stretch) after every 30 mins if he needs it. Then he gets some free time when it's done.

Yes.

Oh and might seem like a minor thing, make sure you acknowledge his co-operation but without the "for once" type additions.

"Thank you. Because you settled to do your work so quickly, you have time to go on your switch for half an hour before lunch". no reference to "why can't you always do this" or "like you normally would". Give him the boost without taking the wind from his sails. This isn't about winning or losing. This is about you creating an environment where he learns to do what he needs to do without feeling shame or that he has 'lost'.

Well done.

@Whaddyathinkofthis

Thank you, I just wanted to show everyone that I am making progress.

You are.

Just make sure it stays positive.

Just wanted to illustrate something about parenting styles that might help you to understand what people have been trying to say.

Permissive parenting - child can do pretty much what they want with no boundaries. Imagine a sheep wandering on a hill. It can wander and wander and wander very far away from home - go wherever it likes when it likes and do what it likes. Master of its own destiny, if you will. This is what your children have had so far. Sounds idyllic. Lots of freedom (eg re food and how to spend time), no restrictions but also nothing to make them feel safe. They don't know how far they can go; its endless.

Authorative parents - create a boundary with enough space to move with some independence but there is an end to it. The sheep has a pen and they can do what they like within the pen - they can wander around, walk the perimeter, sit in the middle, lie down, jump about a bit. They have choices. But they can't leave the pen and go where they like. This is what people have been getting at when they suggest earning switch time; discussing weekly meal plans, offering a simple choice). These children feel safe because they have the space to make some decisions and have their voice heard but within parental control. This is what you need to aim for.

Authoratarian parenting - very restrictive. More like a cage than a pen. The sheep can only face one direction, it doesn't even have the space to turn around when it wants. Very unhappy sheep! This is the very restrictive, punitive parenting characterised by threats and punishments. Do as I say and do it now! Unhappy sheep, unhappy children. This is what you have effectively tried to establish with "you will eat what I make now!" And "do your work or lose your switch".

Does that explain what people have been trying to say?

You need to aim for authoritative where your son has freedom to choose between limited options; freedom to make choices (eg I do my homework now and i get my switch for 30 mins or I don't do my homework now and I don't); but not the wide open freedom to dictate (eg demanding food them refusing to eat it or throwing it in the bin); nor the total lack of freedom (do this, or else!)

Does that make sense?

And when you've cracked this, you can come and teach me how to keep my house as tidy as yours! 🙄