My whole life one girl/woman dislikes me for no reason and then gets everyone else to dislike me :(

[LocalNetter]

My whole life one girl/woman dislikes me for no reason and then gets everyone else to dislike me :(

I don't know why but this pattern has repeated my entire life so far. At school, in my house-share, at uni, at work.

There will be no argument, no fight, no disagreement. I would have maybe spoken to them once or twice and suddenly they'll be all cold (but some will pretend to be nice to my face) but will gradually stop the ones who do talk to me from talking to me. It will always be those most closest to that girl/woman who will firstly start acting off with me and then eventually most people get converted to that way.

Whilst the others wouldn't necessarily be my bestest friends, I know they'd like me enough to make pleasant talk with me etc and over time they almost start becoming a bully towards me.

Is this how some people bond? By talking about someone else negatively to build their own friendship?

The saddest thing is I would have had no fight or disagreement or done anything remotely unkind to deserve that hate. Fine if she's not interested in being friends with me but to actively dislike me for no reason and turn others against me is horrible. Sometimes, the girls who do this are initially much less liked by others than I am and yet they miraculously turn it around completely.

I'm just sick of being the butt of it for other girls to bond with each other and I don't know why it happens to me every time :( :( I always try and help people, have never been disloyal or even rude, even these girls themselves will often say I'm super nice, etc. - it's almost like that film "mean girls".

Have you seen people treated this way? Do you know what seems to make a particular person a target for this kind of behaviour?

I hate being a victim of this any longer :(

OP, do you want to resolve this problem? Because the only way you can do that is by reflecting on, and changing, yourself and your behaviour, not other people’s.

Do you understand that?

@LocalNetter how long ago did you leave uni?

OP, do you find yourself feeling a bit sorry for the "runt" and befriending them, bringing them into or closer into the group?

Google mumsnet "Wendying". It's a phenomenon in which a slightly odd or lonely woman is taken under the wing of someone seemingly more popular, then new-girl comes to resent her sponsor and bonds with the group by manipulating them against the one who actually brought her in. This is dubbed "Wendying". The "Wendied" woman is then left friendless.

The solution is to force yourself to be polite but distant with broken birdies rather than give into the urge to befriend and/or "save" them. Don't introduce them to existing friends. Ever.

The Op isn’t explaining “Wendy-ing to me. The flat mate example, and example of someone she’s never spoken to don’t really fit that description at all

What I think is happening is that the OP is fixating on specific women and blaming them for whatever.

I agree that none of this is "Wendying" and even if it was then the chances of it happening at school, then at uni, and in the accommodation and at work is very unlikely to say the least.

IMHO most people are just making friends and chatting with people they like completely oblivious that someone is looking at their group feeling left out. Yes queen bees and schemers do exist, but they are quite rare and easy to spot and avoid.

I always said to my kids when they were young, if someone refuses to play or let you join their group just go and find someone else to play with, there is always someone else, and this has worked for them the same as it's always worked for me.

"Yeah I think I’ve lived with the logic that if I am nice to someone else, they’d be nice back to me (not necessarily friends but polite and civil) and if they’re not, I just need to almost convince them of my niceness"

You don't needs to convince anyone that aren't nice or interested in you. Maybe that's why. You may look like you are too pushy to have friendship with someone who clearly doesn't. Maybe your niceness is ott and annoying. Who knows. You don't need to be friends with everyone. There are always someone who we don't get on, and naturally stay away. If that person keeps approaching and trying to convince me how nice they are, I would be annoyed too.

But this is work. No one should be interrupting people, making co-workers feel socially excluded, refusing to train their colleagues. Their should not be cliques and social groups at work to the extent that others feel isolated.

It doesn’t matter how annoying you find someone, how bad their social skills, etc. It’s not a point of the OP wanting to be “friends” she just wants to be treated with respect at work.

And it’s a massive leadership failure and culture problem if people are doing the things OP described unchecked.

I had this in my last job, the woman was a spectacular bitch. I'd worked there a long time and she came in and ruined the dynamic. She turned the place into a very toxic bitchy breeding ground for gossip and backhanders. Fuck that life's too short so I left.

I do think in life there are always alpha females. Women who have stronger personalities than others and tend to take the lead in things like work, uni, friendship groups. Not saying women like this are bad, I just had a bad experience with one.

If you're always butting heads with the alpha maybe it's because you're also an alpha and the two don't mix very well. You just don't realise it

And I mean this in the nicest way possible OP

stop being a victim. People prey on victims because they know they can get away with it. Stick up for yourself and say something. It may be uncomfortable for a few days but will work out in the long run. People treat you how you let them treat you

This thread reminds me of all the ones where a self-declared Nice Guy comes on to seek the wisdom of Mumsnet as to why he can't get a girlfriend when he is – honestly! – nothing but nice and sweet and thoughtful and not-bad-looking and would make the dream boyfriend but for some reason bitches just use him and dump him for a biker every time.

There is usually a bunch of kind and well-meaning Mumsnetters who try to help each Nice Guy too, before on page 32 of an interminably repetitive thread he cracks and says something that reveals he's actually a seething ball of frustrated entitlement and misogyny and the reason women run is that in real life –with its layers of contextual clues –they quickly pick up that the Nice Guy is fundamentally inauthentic and wants a 'relationship' with them as a means to an end rather than an end in itself.

@antisocialdistance

Funny, for me it brings to mind the any of the really awful question “But what were you wearing?”

@HannaYeah

That is indeed an awful question to ask someone who has experienced an incident of illegal assault. (Although TBH I've been reading Mumsnet for best part of a decade and have yet to see anyone ask that question.)

However it's a world away from an OP who is talking about a life-long recurrent pattern of people not wanting to engage with her in the way she feels she deserves due to her 'niceness'.

It’s a handful of people engaging in “blame the victim” because people don’t like to think the world is unfair. And probably because they don’t see much wrong with being unkind at work to people they find annoying.

She’s openly willing to take responsibility for having been bullied and excluded. Has repeatedly agreed it is probably something she’s doing. Has indicated a willingness to go to therapy to figure herself out. Has even stayed engaged in a thread that’s chock full of some pretty unpleasant commentary questioning every aspect of her personality right down to her internal thoughts.

But many of the posts (especially the repeated posts from the same posters) go beyond helpful, productive or kind. Just like “what were you wearing?”

You keep posting the same stuff over and over again.

Hannah yeah you are spot on.
She's trying to get to the bottom of it, to fix it, because she doesn't want it happening. People can be pretty cruel to women who aren't naturally socially skilled (not talking about shyness though). Particularly other women. I've noticed with guys they are happy to be friends with guys that are a bit odd as long as they have an interest in common. They just don't care.
Women do, and their victims care about being rejected - there's even a name for it 'rejection sensitivity dysphoria'. So some people can't just brush this stuff off, and might not be on top of all of the social clues, even though they might be very decent people (lets not forget that narcissists and psychopaths are usually wildly popular) just seem off key. Asd/adhd etc maybe?
But some women for some reason just want to rip them to shreds. Like seeing that persons struggle just pisses them off so much. They can't even be fucking kind. Personally I think that's far worse than maybe trying too hard to be friendly because you feel insecure. I get it - you don't want to have that person attach themselves to you. But to go after them and stop other people from being friendly. That's just fucked up. I've seen it, I've been subjected to it, and it is just fucking nasty. There is no excuse for it at all.

Antisocial distance I lmfao reading your post about the men that come on here. I'm new so have yet to see this but I'll definitely take note!

Thank you @Vodkacranberryplease for your kind words and that is very true what you said about psychopaths and narcs and that men generally don’t care if someone’s social skills are a bit off whereas a lot of women will read between the lines, use sixth sense/intuition and gut feelings to label someone as a bit of a reject - I really don’t know why.

Men are really hard to disappoint socially lol I find men and women talking to men can be a bit unfiltered, unintentionally offensive etc and they don’t bat an eyelid whereas women often pick up on the tiniest things so people like me who are a bit socially clumsy are totally fucked.

I’m one of these people who tries to be everyone’s friend so spread myself fairly thinly - I won’t actively seek out a particular colleague etc and will be equally friendly to whichever one I talk to that happens to be nearby so because of that I don’t think I would be particularly clingy towards 1 particular woman. I definitely am intense during a convo and a massive people pleaser so I probably come across like I have clingy potential despite probably becoming bored after an intense convo with someone and wanting my space for a bit lol

I think trying to be everyone’s friend is where you are going wrong.

It’s hard work being around a people pleaser. You’ll be coming across as someone with no self respect. The fact that you need everyone to like you for you to be an acceptable human being says a lot.

You must be exhausted from trying.

Yeah @chatons you’re right - it is exhausting which is why I probably end up craving more alone time than others

Yeah I think I’ve lived with the logic that if I am nice to someone else, they’d be nice back to me (not necessarily friends but polite and civil) and if they’re not, I just need to almost convince them of my niceness but it’s clear now that in every situation that has only made things worse. I just find it very difficult to empathise with that thought process

I think this kind of statement OP is why I mentioned Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy upthread. There isn’t actually any logic in your statement and to live by the idea that if you’re kind you can expect or create kindness in return is an irrational belief (because it isn’t true, doesn’t make sense and actually doesn’t help you). It’s that kind of “demand” that is examined in REBT and I think it can be really helpful in developing a more flexible approach to the behaviour of others and detaching others’ responses from your sense of your own worth.

On an intellectual level you know it doesn’t help You to think in this way but we all have the capacity to abandon that intellectual understanding as soon as we find ourselves in the situation where our demands are triggered. I’m declaring my hand here as I am an REBT therapist but it does seem to me it might be a helpful process for you.

I’m interested in @Vodkacranberryplease ‘s mention of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria as I am diagnosed with Inattentive ADHD and this is a big element of the diagnosis. For me, when I look back at my conduct (I was diagnosed at 52!) I realise how much of a misfit I was. I was always deeply uncool which was troubling when young (but I relish my uncoolness now!). Over my twenties I developed an absolute dislike of cliques or groups of women because I knew I would never be a good fit (though I wasn’t sure why Back then). I still have a real need to puncture the ringleaders and “Queen Bees” of this world, not unkindly but by refusing to say and do things to defer to a self appointed clique controller (for want of a better phrase) and that is part of my ADHD but it’s a conscious decision these days not to slot into any female social hierarchy Where they exist. I adopted what I call “satellite friendship Regimen” where I had light friendships with as many different people as possible, as diverse as possible but no set group, I still flit. Later this served me well at the school gates etc. As I’ve got older I’ve now got good friends and a wide circle but I still find groups of women a bit painful and I have been over-sensitive about approval or lack of it when in that situation which is classic RSD. though at my age I’ve become skilled at keeping it under wraps and I guess my training in REBT has helped me recognise what I’m doing to myself.

When I said up thread “have a good hard look at what you’re doing” it wasn’t meant to be unkind it’s just that it’s the one thing you can do something about so that you don’t have to feel so bewildered by others’ responses and so you can spot and break a few patterns you may have created which are causing you problems.

I can relate to so much of what you've said LocalNetter. I'm in my late 40's & long given up on the idea of friends. When I was young I asked my DM "why don't people like me?" She said that I was too aggressive & wanted everything my own way, which at home was probably true, but outside I was mute with anxiety & struggled with social rules. My sisters are the type of women you describe. They could walk into a room, have people flocking to them & come away with a new group of friends. Neither of them are good friends though & use people for their own ends, then drop them. My youngest sister thrives on having an entourage around her hanging off every word. She treats them badly, yet they come back for more. Eldest is a compulsive liar, she even believes her own bullshit. Yet if I called her out on it she'd twist things to make me look like the bad guy!

I have asked DH what I am doing wrong several times. All he can see is a lovely person who would do anything for anyone, which is what I try to be, but something is clearly rubbing people up the wrong way! I have 2 adult DC who are both diagnosed with ASD & sadly share my struggles, which breaks my heart. It was a huge lightbulb moment for me when the DC were being assessed for ADHD & ASD, suddenly all the pieces of the jigsaw fitted together. It explained why I'd struggled so much & continue to do so. I have since been diagnosed with ADHD & waiting on an ASD diagnosis. Have you ever looked into things like ASD & ADHD?

Reality is you can't change who you are to any great degree. Its a case of finding your niche & those similar to you. You seem younger than I am, so still time to turn things around. Do you have any family support? I didn't have any & was punished, hit & eventually thrown out for what I now know were behaviours related to my ADHD/ASD. I try my hardest to help my DC have a better life than I did/have, but I think at times I possibly made things worse by going OTT.

Sorry I went on a bit. Just wanted to show some support to your situation as you've had a lot of stick here. I'm sure its mainly due to people not understanding the situation, having not experienced it themselves, which is understandable. Also wanted to say feel free to message me if you want to chat further.

Haha youokhun... I too have adhd. RSD is a big part of it.
But I am sick to fucking death of certain women (a few on here too) deciding to judge me because they think I'm 'wrong'. They wouldn't do it to a man. I've seen that very clearly. These days if I can see them starting I immediately blank them. I don't try to be nice and if they make a comment I don't let it go. But I just choose to literally never be around them - and some are sneaky. A good friend of a good friend of mine doesn't like me but pretends to my good friend she does. So I say nothing and ensure she's not in my orbit.

Even this mostly decent response from Chatons 't’s hard work being around a people pleaser. You’ll be coming across as someone with no self respect. The fact that you need everyone to like you for you to be an acceptable human being says a lot.' really??? You think someone CHOOSES to feel this way? You think it makes them what exactly in the eyes of others? Fuck that.

No one knows how this kind of thing affects women, and no one cares. I tell no one about my adhd because frankly they don't understand and there's no point in trying. It would be easier if I was an evil psychopath because then the so called socially expert women wouldnt suspect a fucking thing. I think they are so attractive because they just don't care what anyone thinks whereas this is the opposite. So someone who is genuinely an arsehole is loved and someone genuinely decent is shunned. Oh well, cest la vie!

No I don’t think anyone chooses to be that way. I used to be a lot like it, (which meant being bullied and being awkward/uncool/unpopular) and I think it’s only with age and drifting further away from being a functional member of society, that I’ve stopped caring so much about fitting in.

I’m a hermit with a very select few friends, and go long periods without seeing anyone. It’s safer that way for me. It’s ok.

I’m currently in the process but f being assessed for ASD (and possibly ADHD as well, not sure).

I just know from experience that people see through those who are “too nice” and desperate to be liked.

With enough awareness and therapy/experience you can hopefully learn to go about things a little differently and look for “your people” instead.

Chatons I very much want to say I wasn't having a go at you. I know exactly what you mean about just disengaging and you are right - being too friendly is off putting. But there's nothing to see through. It's not like beneath that is a horrible person. So I have no sympathy with people who are in effect saying 'she deserved it'.

I think humans are chimps with clothes and being too nice makes you appear too low status. It's really more about the ugly side of human nature than the fact that trying to be liked is wrong. Not giving a shit is much more likely to get you places. I'm struck by the original posters description of a work situation where the woman she hired turned on her. She should have had the bitch fired. Not allowing her to run some ridiculous little game like that. Unfortunately that takes a lot of self belief and strength which after years of being attacked may be in short supply.

I agree. Chimps in clothes. Yupp. 90% of people won't get a thrill put of spotting and then capitalising on a weakness, but these people do exist.

Even marcus aurelius wrote about this, dialoguing with him self that they were out there so it was an inevitability to come across them occasionally.

Yet so many people on this thread have done their level best to discredit op's own account of what is happening to her. Weird.

Stop being "nice" to people. some will take advantage of you being "nice". I watched this happen to a friend who was a student nurse. Other students ostracized her and laughed at her in our accomodation. She was never invited to things. I expected more of these so called ~"caring people". sometimes one person in a group promotes distance between people and others don't speak up about what they truly think of the person being ostracized as they are protecting themselves. My friend saw the best in people before she would see the worse. She eventually made friends who support her and are very real. As people get to know you they will decide if there is advantage or benefit in you e.g . borrowing things, getting lifts or money but when you say "no" to others you will get more respect. Never feel the need to make people like you. You must like yourself first....not in a bragging way...which can be irritating. . Oh by the way workplaces can be very competitive. some will be telling a manager they are training you up and the reality is far from it so you get painted into a picture or made to look difficult or problematic. Build individual relationships with colleagues and manager to prevent this happening.
take care.