Why does MN not like SAHMs?

[Didthatreallyhappen2]

This baffles me (and I haven't posted in AIBU as I know the vitriol that arises there sometimes). I'm proudly an SAHM. Friends are equally proudly working mums. I don't care what they are, as long as they are decent human beings. They don't judge me, and I don't judge them.

But on MN it seems that SAHMs are looked down on. My DH and I have a partnership - he earns the money and I do everything (and I mean everything) at home, all the domestic tasks, school-related etc etc. We both work full time, but I don't get paid, or have an annual review, or bonuses or whatever. It works for us.

Everything in our household is joint - and yet on MN SAHMs are continually lambasted for not having their own money, prospects, wasted their education, not a good role model etc etc. Why? I truly don't understand this.

orsomething raising children is also contributing to society. Whether that be done by the mother or by a childminder, nanny, nursery, whatever the situation is. Being in employment is not the only way to contribute to society

How can you say that it's not easy when it's just day to day living that others do around work
Well mostly because what I do ISN’T what you do squeezed into before and after work.

I think it's sad that as a society we only value wealth creation
You seem to be confusing wealth creation with having the financial means to get by.

I think it's sad and troubling that there are women who are so focussed on justifying their own choices that they take an issue with other women advocating fully informed decision making when a fellow woman is making decisions about their household.

Already on this thread it's apparently faux concern and jealousy to suggest that women get informed on rights, deeds, pensions, financial security before making their decisions in their circumstances.

Many men are aware of these things, women who have their own assets, pensions etc tend to be aware of these things, and yet often it's those without the means to be financially independent who don't get clued up and risk being shafted down the line (not helped by cries of "some people only value money... Common law spouse.. my DP treats me better than my friend's husband treats her... Marriage is only a piece of paper... Your babas your rules hun, bubbas want to be with their mums")

I'm a sahm but I'm in the minority among my friends and acquaintances. They always mention their 'mum guilt', well I don't have any. I do however have a vague unease that my IQ is slowly but steadily dropping. Swings and roundabouts!

Already on this thread it's apparently faux concern and jealousy to suggest that women get informed on rights, deeds, pensions, financial security before making their decisions in their circumstances. I’m not sure why you assume a SAHP is LESS informed than a working one. It tends to be an active choice to not seek employment. It will be questioned and criticised fairly regularly even just socially. Why do you think this group of women is particularly clueless?

5zeds
What do you do differently?
Granted, I don't think you all just doss around all day, being a mum full stop is hard work but working and then coming home to more work is a lot more draining I don't know how you can argue against that unless obviously your child has SN etc

@frillseeking
You are right, we are raising the next generation but in reality you can raise the next generation whilst also working to contribute to the economy unless there are specific reasons you need to be a SAHP.

Those who have no choice or find it works better for your family due to your child needing extra care or whatever it may be is a lot different to those who stay at home because they have wealthy partners.

But LolaSmiles but working doesn't always give you the means to get by. Look at how many working people have to claim benefits.

And I agree I don't see why SAHMs are uniquely ignorant about "common law marriage"

After almost 10 years in my most recent job I was made redundant on mat leave. Started a small freelance business. Then fell pregnant with an unexpected second 3 years later. Because I had so many issues with the first pregnancy, I had to stop work with the second. I’m still clawing my way back but now I have up to and including 4 to5 drop offs and pick ups a day. Try telling that to a potential employer! I’m absolutely screwed because going back to work means paying someone else, and they are going to cost as much as I can earn.Advice welcomed

I was in a similar position when my DCs were small. The standard MN advice would be to go back to work anyway and hand over all your salary to someone else to look after your children because even if you’re working for no money, I think he long run it’ll be worth it because you’ve kept your hand in.

This is what I did, but I tell you: it was soul destroying. The stress of juggling all the drop offs and pick ups, having to leave meetings early to collect children, having to leave my team in the lurch when nursery rang to say one of them was ill again... DH works an hour and a half commute from our home and I was only a half hour tube ride away, so all that shit fell to me. Doing all the pick ups meant I was home before him too, so I got the added bonus of cooking the evening meal and doing bath and bedtime on my own. Sure, I got to go to the office every day and speak to grown ups and have something to put on my CV, but I was worn out and ground down and - critically, I wasn’t seeing a penny of the money I was earning.

I’ve just quit to become a SAHM. My eldest is in school and my youngest doesn’t start for another 18 months, so it’s not like I’m sat on my arse getting head massages at David Lloyd and having lunch. Yes, DP could decide to leave me for a twenty-something with perky tits but I think you just need to do what’s right for your family at any given time. Now that I’m not killing myself getting into the office for 8am every day so I can leave bang on 4, everything is so much calmer. My eczema has gone, DP and I get on better, the kids’ behaviour is better because they’re not knackered from long days in childcare. All those pros vastly outweigh the cons of my not working right now.

Over the course of our marriage I have been a WOHM, SAHM and at a couple of points in time I’ve also out-earned DP in the past and perhaps I will again in the future. It just happens that he was offered a big job with an enormous pay rise when I was on maternity leave - so obviously we went for it because it was a great opportunity him and all of us would benefit from having more money. You just evaluate and adjust as circumstances change.

Of course you can’t explain all that nuance and context every time you say you’re a SAHM. A lot of people hear SAHM and think ‘sponging mug’.

I said marriage in my previous post - we’re not actually married but we have mirror wills, are named on each other’s life insurance policies, jointly own our house, etc, etc.

Having seen 2 of my SAHM friends utterly shafted by their husbands in divorce, I would never make myself so vulnerable and have told my DDs to always be financially independent. But I have no feelings one way or another- we are all responsible for our choices.

Meanwhile my far greater concern is the extortionate cost of childcare and the lack of respect for the people who work in that field.

Absolutely orsomething, one doesn't have to cancel out the other and people do both. I was just highlighting that working isn't the only way to contribute to society and that both situations hold their own value

Comparing two lives is always fairly ridiculous @orsomething (and one of my children is disabled but I’m not sure if that really is relevant to this discussion). All the things you do but probably in a more labour intensive way (eg cook from scratch, but food in person, do school runs, garden/clean/diy, have a larger family, facilitate more, care for elderly family, support school blah blah).

I’m not sure why you assume a SAHP is LESS informed than a working one.
I don't, and haven't said that.
. Why do you think this group of women is particularly clueless?
I don't, and haven't said that.

I've said that some people on here take a real issue with women advocating other women make INFORMED CHOICES on how they allocate work/childcare in their families. And they do that by getting snippet and defensive as if suggesting women make informed choices is somehow hating on SAHM (case in point here).

It's really not difficult to understand that suggesting women make an informed choice and consider a range of financial and long term factors into their decision is a good thing for women because it reduces the likelihood of them being totally shafted. The choice they make is up to them; it's just better being informed.

There's too many threads where women give everything up, make themselves vulnerable because "it just made sense" without thinking it through.
E.g. it made sense for me to give up work for 8 years, move into DP's house whilst not being on the deeds, having no pension contributions of my own, no claim on DP's pension... But now DP has been a dickhead I'm stuck and will really struggle to set up again on my own whilst his career has taken off due to me running the home.
At this point loads of people pile in saying that the law should be changed to force legal contracts on people who opted not to enter into one (marriage), changed to give them entitlement to property they aren't on the deeds for etc, as if it was somehow a fanciful idea that an adult might consider these things. We can be damn sure the DP knew what he was doing by not adding his partner to his pension, not adding her to the deeds, not getting married.

Whereas a woman who thought it through and made an informed choice might decide:

• insisting on marriage because whilst it doesn't stop relationships ending, it is a legal contract that respects and values her input over the years
• to not give up work without being on the deeds of the property and named in his pension, with appropriate legal documents to sure up support etc
• to remain part time rather than giving up altogether
• have DP pay into a private pension in her name for the duration she's staying at home
• ignore all the big factors and decide she loves DP and he'd never so anything bad and stay home anyway

It's really not a bad idea to say to a woman "make whatever choice you want, but be well informed".

It’s slightly patronising to suggest they aren’t well informed.

Thing is being a SAHM you always think your DH or DP won't do you like that because things are ok in your relationship.

My best friend just found out her perfect DH would and did do her like that and divorce her.

He has been difficult with money, keeping the children's clothes and uniforms at his place because he doesn't want to buy his own set when he works and she doesn't.

She is penniless, doesn't want to go back to work because she has no skills and has got used to a life if not working and lots of free time when DC are at school.

It isnt hatred it is an acknowledgement that you are vulnerable with no means to support yourself if it does wrong.

Half the house, half the savings, half pension/other assets, nearly grown children and the same brain I went into marriage with.

Surely all women whether they stay at home or not need to make sure that they wouldn't be vulnerable if their partner left them. The assumption here has been mentioned repeatedly here makes it sound as though it's only 'naive' SAHM who could fall into this trap. Imagine if people were talking about working mothers in the same way saying that they were too busy working to ever think it would happen to them. It would sound completely patronising and like bullshit wouldn't it, because that's what it is! Also always assuming that the man would leave the woman. Relationships break down all the time and it's not just the man who runs off! Very outdated views here.

It’s slightly patronising to suggest they aren’t well informed
Except I haven't said SAHM aren't well informed.
In fact, I even listed things women may consider as part of making an informed choice.

I've said SOME women aren't well informed and not being well informed leads them to make decisions that shaft them, and that some women are so desperate to cheerlead they get annoyed at anyone suggesting making an informed decision is important.

You appear determined to take "women should make whatever choice is right for them and it should be an informed choice" with "you think SAHM are poorly informed how mean and patronising".

Probably because that’s how it’s coming across. The threads about SAHM not people in general so if you yack on about what you perceive as their particular vulnerabilities and possible financial naivety obviously someone is going to say “ that’s not unique to this group”.

I don’t think there’s an anti SAHM feeling here, a lot of the time it’s very real concerns that, should the shit hit the fan and the DH/DP leaves - you’re in one of the most vulnerable positions you can be.

I’m a SAHM, it wasn’t by choice. I fell pregnant with my twins after two years of treatment (including surgery) to combat severe endometriosis. Was told I’d likely never conceive the ‘traditional’ way and that it was highly probable that even with medical assistance, pregnancy wouldn’t be viable. Months after being told this (after the surgery) I think my uterus took the words of the doctors as a challenge because I fell pregnant and at our first scan appointment we discovered it was twins!

Then I lost my job (downsizing), then I couldn’t find any other jobs as any interview I went to it was clear I was pregnant so nobody wanted to hire me, then the opportunities became less and less, then I looked into childcare costs for two children for when I could return to work and we quickly realised I wouldn’t earn enough to cover one child in FT or PT nursery, let alone two. So here I am, a SAHM to twin toddlers and I love that I get to spend such time with them, but I hate that I am reliant on DH’s wage and a small amount of benefits. I was raised with the phrase ‘nothing comes for free’ and have prided myself on my work ethic from the age of 16 when I got my first job.

I worry that should DH decide to do a runner I’ll be stuck in a very dire situation financially. I know that when my twins are 3yo they may not be able to go to nursery because they are delayed in development after being born prematurely and low weight (and DD was very ill). I know that if I can go back to work I will have to start at the very bottom again in order to have any kind of career. I’m a SAHM and I recognise that these are all very real possibilities - but I don’t feel that when the comments are made about SAHM’s that they’re said with vitriol (well the majority anyways ) - just concern that all it takes is one thing for your life to take a bad turn and if you’ve no money and no means to look after yourself, it’s going to be a very hard time to overcome it and maybe some haven’t considered that.

If "women should make informed choices" said repeatedly comes across as "being mean to SAHM" then there's really no hope for a discussion.

The reality is that SOME women do end up in a precarious position from drifting into staying at home (often encouraged by their DP who knows this and cheerleader posters on here), and the reality is that se posters on here get incredibly snipey when posters dare to suggest getting informed before making decisions.

Eg. Some SAHM end up vulnerable, lacking state pension contributions, lacking a personal pension, facilitating a man's career without any obligation for him to recognise their input, paying towards houses they aren't on the deeds for.

If it makes you feel good then knock yourself and pretend that these are just "perceived vulnerabilities" or don't exist.
Meanwhile the rest of us will continue advocating that when it comes to making decisions about staying home/working/distribution of home tasks and childcare that women make informed choices that are right for them (whether that's SAHP or WOHP)

So many of the reasons women become SAHMs would be solved if there was just decent, affordable childcare in this country.

I only know 2 people who are /have been SAHPs once their DC went to school.
One has mental health issues (brought on IMO by being a SAHM) and the other likes to be a SAHM for a lazy life.

so that has coloured my view slightly.

From a personal opinion, I think it's an ideal that an adult (of either sex) should have the skills to support themselves. This doesn't just include the ability to earn money, but the ability to do things like cooking, cleaning, house maintenance, childcare, that are part of being an adult. There are too many threads on here (again about both sexes) where adults lack basic skills because they've always relied on their partner doing something.

I don't like sahm who moan how hard it is. Try having a full time job on top then talk to me.

I also don't like it when people are sahm but claim benefits to enable it. Get a job like everyone else has to!

I do not include parents of kids with disabilities here btw.