Why does MN not like SAHMs?

[Didthatreallyhappen2]

This baffles me (and I haven't posted in AIBU as I know the vitriol that arises there sometimes). I'm proudly an SAHM. Friends are equally proudly working mums. I don't care what they are, as long as they are decent human beings. They don't judge me, and I don't judge them.

But on MN it seems that SAHMs are looked down on. My DH and I have a partnership - he earns the money and I do everything (and I mean everything) at home, all the domestic tasks, school-related etc etc. We both work full time, but I don't get paid, or have an annual review, or bonuses or whatever. It works for us.

Everything in our household is joint - and yet on MN SAHMs are continually lambasted for not having their own money, prospects, wasted their education, not a good role model etc etc. Why? I truly don't understand this.

Stabbitha1
It depends who you talk to. I think there's s healthy admiration and respect in both directions from most people.

The issue comes from:

• the very work focussed WOHM who'll turn "I personally would find staying home a chore and I enjoy the intellectual challenge if my job" into "I don't know how ANYONE is a SAHP. They just be so bored without any stimulation. It must be mind numbing."

• the very "full time mummies" who turn "staying at home was the right choice for me and my family & I love having time to spend the days with DC" into "I don't see why ANYONE would be a WOHM. What's the point in having children if you're going to dump them on other people to raise? If people valued time and making memories more then we'd be much better. Children won't notice your nice handbags but they will notice when you're not there for them every day"

My friend was a stay at home mum then went back to work part time after her children were a little older. She thought it was all good because her DH was a high earner but he left her when the kids turned 18 and he's fighting the pension contribution now she's too skint to get a decent solicitor. Protect your own finances if you are going to be a SAHM.

I've been a sahm for most of my time on MN and haven't noticed any particular hate for it. There are some inviduals who look down it, but equally I'm sure there are people with the opposite view who look down on working mum's.

In my real life I admit I feel a bit embarrassed to be a sahm. Not by the others mums I know, but most of my friends back home (who mostly don't have DC tbf), I feel a bit looked down on by them.

not having their own money, prospects, wasted their education, not a good role model etc etc.
I don’t understand how you can’t understand the reasons you stated.
Because they are all valid. As is the idea that you are very vulnerable by not having your own earning capability. What if you split up?
I am always baffled by comments that working mothers are jealous of stay at home mothers.

@MiniGuinness
I am always baffled by comments that working mothers are jealous of stay at home mothers
Some WOHMs are jealous of SAHMs, some SAHMs are jealous of WOHMs. They will admit it quite openly and I don't think it's surprising at all. In a society where women take roles that they don't necessarily freely choose and where they feel judgement and restrictions then it's hardly surprising that a bit of jealousy and resentment creeps in towards other eomdn.

Personally I think the big issue with being a SAHP is that it is seen as a role that sets you apart from WOHPs and means that your career and financial prospects will never really recover. In my experience, quite a lot of people (men and women) would like the opportunity to be SAHPs for a period of their life or careers for their elderly parents etc but feel that they can't because the stigma and career penalties applied are too high. It's frustrating that it's so binary i.e you are a SAHP or a WOHP, rather than it's just a role that you've adopted for a time before you may well go on to take on a different role. You don't intrinsically change who you are through doing something else for a while and most skills can be updated with a bit of retraining.

The other side issue here is that lots of WOHMs also have a full time working partner but they are still having to do most of the children related stuff on top! Like there is Job A and Job B and although Job B is still full time and hectic it’s seen as a lesser job and therefore worker B has to pick up all the other stuff too.

The other obvious point is that for most (not all) being a WOHM mum is not really an active choice - it just happens (either part time or full time) depending upon financial circumstances. Most can’t choose to stop paid work completely. Whereas SAHMs have actively chosen to be there. As a result WOHM posts tend to justify their roles more as they didn’t have an actual choice so what they’ve got must be justified after the fact whereas SAHMs made more of a free choice (typically aided by other wealth) so can change their circumstances if they find full time at home unsuitable for them.

Nyssia I think that is quite a middle class perspective. Many many women have to SAH (or job seek) becuase the cost of childcare for under 3s is prohibitive for low earners. I also agree with other posters it really is a sliding scale very few women I know IRL either chose to work ft after first maternity leave until the child was 18 or did no paid employment for that whole period. Most of us tried to strike a balance " keeping our hand in" whilst having time at home while DCs were young stepping up (or leaning in) a bit more as they got older and more independant.

I do look on with bafflement at PP with secondary school age DCs in private school (IME getting home after 6) who doesn't work. She must have abs of steel !

@Nyssia
The other obvious point is that for most ( not all) being a WOHM mum is not really an active choice - it just happens (either part time or full time) depending upon financial circumstances. Most can’t choose to stop paid work completely. Whereas SAHMs have actively chosen to be there
I strongly disagree with this logic and would argue that SAHPs and WOHPs are equally likely to be in a role that isn't of their choosing.

Lack of earning power making childcare unaffordable, having a child with SEN or a partner with a job that takes them abroad can lead to someone becoming a SAHP. I would argue in all those scenarios (and many more) that a truly "free" choice hasn't been made.

Alternatively, there are many WOHPs that could choose to be SAHPs as they have the resources and opportunity to do so. It might mean a change in lifestyle and financial cut backs but it is definitely an option for a decent amount of people. Lots of parents choose to work and there is no shame in that. Weirdly though, I do tend to find as a SAHM myself that this type of WOHM has been the most judgemental of me being a SAHM. I guess they have actively rejected the role that I have chosen so struggle to understand my rationale sometimes...

"Whereas SAHMs have actively chosen to be there."

Even when there is no childcare for your child. I can't see any choice there.

I think you need to learn the subtle art of not giving a fuck.
I was a SAHM until kids started school. Now I'm PT during school hours.
I loved being a SAHM and I wanted to be the one with my children because I love childcare and I was good at it. I could afford it, it made me happy and my kids have all benefited from having me there. Why then would I have paid someone else to do it?
Frankly all this saccharine faux concern about women being left vulnerable by strangers on the internet is bullshit. It's just a way to foist prejudice, jealousy, insecurity about their own decision on SAHM.
I have grown and learnt very much as a SAHM. Not all growth comes through paid work. I cherish those pre-school years.

not having their own money, prospects, wasted their education, not a good role model etc etc. if you are married then any money earned by either party is “owned” by both, it’s odd to judge someone in terms of their “career” if they aren’t pursuing one , education is never wasted, a sahm is only “not a good role model” if you don’t value her role. It’s actually crap spouted like this that shows how ingrained some peoples attitudes to being a SAH/FTM/whatever you like to call it. If your only measure of “success” is career progression, income and independence then of course paths that don’t prioritise those attributes are going to seem less.

I don't hate a SAHMS I just worry about them. No financial security, no pension, limited options for leaving if marriage goes sour.

I think some are brave, some are foolish and some are lucky (the ones whose husbands aren't arseholes and don't leave).

No SAHM ever thinks it's going to happen to them.

But then my husband died when I was pregnant, I'd been absolutely screwed had I been a SAHM and I always tell the DDs I'd be disappointed if they ever relied on a man.

Don't hate them though. Well except the smug rich ones at school trying to make me do fucking bake offs. No, fuck off, I work.

In what way is a married woman not financially secure or entitled to a portion of the pension? What on Earth do you think marriage is?

I don't hate a SAHMS I just worry about them. No financial security, no pension, limited options for leaving if marriage goes sour

Talk about sweeping statement

I think it's (justified) worry for women who have children when they are unmarried and give up their jobs.
This gets stated a lot on MN and while it is true, marriage in itself gives you minimal protection in case of a split. The issue isn't being married or not when you're a SAHM, the issue is

• making sure your name is on the deeds of the house
• making sure you pay into your own private pension
• having your own savings account which is in your name only.

Even married women can end up financially fucked if they don't take care of their financial independence in case of a split!

I haven't seen any hatred of SAHM on MN, I have seen real concern for their financial security and jealousy though.

Good post 5zeds
Especially
“If your only measure of “success” is career progression, income and independence then of course paths that don’t prioritise those attributes are going to seem less.”

Success in a capitalist society is measured by those three things: career, income and financial independence. The fact people value those things above all others is just buying into what capitalism has defined as having worth to society.

Gosh - I'm glad I didn't post this in AIBU …… :)

I am not "anti" SAHM... I AM a SAHM and have been for 15 years... for various reasons ( foolishness of youth paramount amongst those), I never had a career as such prior to kids, just a succession of jobs... my XH is a high earner, and obviously extremely busy and important so was able to support us all financially and I did the rest. He worked long hours and travelled extensively and having me at home made everybody's life easier.

HOWEVER, in the long run I'm less convinced it was entirely the right decision for me and my confidence, standard of living and as an example to the kids.

We are now divorced and he is still busy and important and living at the other end of the country so everything to do with kids and home is still down to me, but all three kids will be at secondary school next year and despite a decent, fair settlement and generous child maintenance, I am looking for paid work and it's hard to be taken in any way seriously. If I had my time again I'd try and keep working outside the home, even if it's just part time, and have a more equitable split of domestic life.

Even if I do find work, I am facing a very different "retirement age" than had we still been together/ or if I'd kept working...

I will be advising my daughters to try and keep working at least part time, if they choose to have a family...

I'm a SAHM for the moment (dc2 due soon) and have had some really judgemental comments from other mums that have made me feel like crap to be honest. Not very imaginative stuff such as 'I'd get so bored being stuck at home every day, every day must feel like groundhog day' and the usual 'I'd hate to rely on my husband.' How about the fact that he relies massively on me to bring up our children and run our home? I don't feel in a vulnerable position financially as we're married and everything has my name on it, as well as my own investment funds and my children's. I had a job that was arguably more stressful than my husbands and involved a lot of long haul travel that wouldn't suit a family as he travels also. I was privately educated and went to one of the top 10 universities yet have found myself cut short in conversations with 'oh you just stay at home' as if I don't have anything to contribute. If people are so narrow minded as to think that I have lost all my brain cells by being at home for a few years then more fool them! I would never dream of criticising their choices and saying how you could leave poor little xyz every day so why do people feel they can openly criticise mine and put me down? UnsurpsI don't see these mums hardly any more and have found some other lovely mum friends to spend time with!

I think it's sad that as a society we only value wealth creation.

The “I would be so bored” type comments always amaze me. The idea that you literally cannot find anything to satisfy you unless you are paid for it is ludicrous. These same people seem to have no problem enjoying weekends, evenings and holidays. I would be deeply ashamed if I had so little about me that I needed 9-5 organised by someone else. It’s not real. The worry about your vulnerable financial situation is not real either. MOST people would have to massively change their living situations if they split from their partner. It’s a put down designed to highlight how valueless your existence is in their eyes.

Everyone saying it's jealousy are clearly SAHP. Of course in an ideal world most people would choose not to work, but working is contributing to society. If I didn't work I'd probably feel unfulfilled and bored. So not everyone is jealous, for me I can't stand when women say they are a SAHM yet their kids are all school aged. They then claim they are so busy yet I know full well it doesn't take all day to clean the house, do the laundry etc. You are not a full time stay at home parent when you don't have your kids all day. How can you say that it's not easy when it's just day to day living that others do around work😂