Who else would really appreciate a polite discussion of gender issues and the concerns of women at the jess Philips webchat on Monday?

[StealthPolarBear]

I posted on the webchat thread:
Since the questions have already been asked I am not allowed to repeat similar but I want on record that self ID, its potential abuse, protection of vulnerable young people from those who promote transition which can sometimes include puberty blockers, the protection of natal women's rights and the importance of teaching biological facts in schools are big concerns to me.

MNHQ have said they don't want any more comments or questions about gender issues on the Web chat thread which I can understand. However what I do want to make clear is the number of people who may share some or all of my concerns. Otherwise any questions about gender issues are of an equal weight to all others and in fact others, which can be repeated in a different form, may seem to gain more weight.

wakemewhenitsallover, what is it?

Morning Stealth :) I think I can't have had enough coffee yet as I have no idea what you're asking! Apologies if I'm being dense!

Sorry you said you'd made some changes but I couldn't see exactly what had changed. I think I've spotted a few.
I'd deliberately left out the point about gc people losing their job, as that wasn't what happened with maya f, was it. She lost the opportunity for further work. I don't want to give them any opportunity to accuse us if exaggeration. What do you think

Please do count me in as well. Shocked at the censorship of women's voices here. Thank you for all you are doing.

Ah, OK I see, sorry!

These are my suggested changes:

I've changed the wording on this point:

• self ID and its potential abuse: do you accept that it's inevitable that sex predators would take advantage of self-ID to gain access to vulnerable women and children? What do think should be done about this?

I've added this one:

• There has been rise of more than 4,000% of girls referred to the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock. Penny Mordant promised an enquiry. Where is it?

I changed wording on this also:

• Spousal escape clause (which you described as 'awful'). It is a popular misconception that this clause a "veto", but it isn't. Spouses have no power to veto sex change or GRA application. What this does is give women the right to exit their marriage before its terms change entirely. Please note at least 3 of the women who recorded their support are directly affected. How do you reconcile this with own views on domestic abuse?

Added some stuff to this to show it's not just about blockers / sexual function, but more generally about children starting a medical pathway that leads to serious outcomes they can't possibly consent to as a child

• protection of vulnerable young people from those who promote transition which can sometimes include puberty blockers. Given time many would develop into healthy homosexuals, however data shows that nearly 100% of children given puberty blockers continue medical transition and go onto cross sex hormones. Medical transition leaves children sterile and can mean they never develop the ability to enjoy sexual pleasure as an adult. Vaginal prolapse is common as is hysterectomy. Do you accept that children can't possibly understand the implications well enough to give informed consent to commence such a life-changing process? Do you welcome the possibility of a judicial review into GIDS?

I added this point. Perhaps it could also do with a link to this excellent recent piece by Marcus Evans who resigned, ending a 35 year associaltion with the Tavistock & Portman, over this issue: quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

• Are you aware of the many ex GIDS / Tavistock clinicians and senior professionals who have resigned and.or whistleblown over their grave concerns over the treatment regime for children and young people and culture at GIDS? Do you agree this is unprecedented and that we are failing children who identify as trans if we don't listen to the concerns of these professionals?

Tha k you
I've added on the webchat thread

00StealthPolarBear

Thank you Justine.
We have a thread of about 200 individual posters now who would very much appreciate a respectful and polite discussion of gender issues and the impact on women's and children's rights. We do not feel the first few posts on these issues which happened to land on this thread do justice to the breadth of issues and the depth of feeling - including a real sense of being silenced on many platforms.
We have prepared a summary of the issues important to us as a group, some of which are direct questions, others just a note that the issue is relevant. Are you happy for me to share them here?

Maya claims she lost her job. The contract she was meant to go onto wasn't just an opportunity for further work that they might have considered her for. It was the continuation of work she was doing and had her name on it, so to speak.

This point hasn't been tested in court as the Judge didn't look at that point at all, he chose to only look at whether a belief in two sexes could be considered a belief that should be protected by the Equality Act.

Personally I think it's fair enough to say that Maya lost her job as that's what happened in practical terms. As far as I know, there's no ambiguity over the fact they they didn't continue to employ her because they didn't approve of her views. It's not like it went out to tender and she just suspects she didn't win it for this reason.

Fair enough, thank you

So Jess, why should my 12 yr old DD have to get changed in the presence of a male child, just this one male child, when all the other male children are excluded? Are we really going to tell all our young girls they have to accept certain males in their changing rooms, just because they have taken on a girl's name?

Would add to this as Jess may not be as familiar with the implications as we are here from discussions:

• The NSPCC pants campaign teaches children that if they feel uncomfortable about their body, privacy or being asked to undress, they should say no and expect to be listened to, and that they are the only judge of whether or not they feel uncomfortable. Is it a good thing to teach girls that their feelings of discomfort, speaking out and expecting to be listened to abruptly become wrong and inappropriate (and even an offence) if their discomfort is due to a male child identifying as a girl? Are you aware that female children are certainly experiencing threat of punishment for voicing their distress in these circumstances, if not actual consequences?

• How, objectively, is discomfort about undressing in front of a biological male different, depending on how the male subjectively identifies themselves? What changes for the female present? Why does the male person's feelings and needs outweigh those of every female? Are the protected characteristics a hierarchy in this situation? What are the reciprocal responsibilities of the male person towards the females in this situation? Are we accidentally teaching female children something about their place in society?

• Do you foresee issues in teaching children, especially girls (MoJ own figures for last year 99% male proportion of sex offenders) that their consent and right to say no in safeguarding terms must be predicated on whether the other person is upset by their setting boundaries? And that in some situations refusing consent and saying no - even if humiliated, frightened, distressed, unwilling - is unacceptable prejudice risking punishment? For example have you see the death threats levelled towards homosexual women refusing even theoretical consent to males who self define as lesbians and so wish them to be sexually available?

Is the main thread not updating for anyone else? The last post I can see on it is from 10.40?

Michelle such important questions that need answering without soundbites.

StealthPolarBear

Instead of saying losing jobs or getting sacked, maybe you could say losing employment? Which is accurate, without running the risk of being exaggerated.

Jess appears to be on the main thread now.

I've posted a link to this thread on the webchat. I expect it to be deleted almost immediately, and to be fully disciplined for it.

This is what happened last time Jess Phillips came on MN for a webchat.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2833008-MNHQ-here-webchat-with-MPs-Jess-Phillips-and-Flick-Drummond

3 pages of questions mainly about trans issues - but lots of different aspects before the webchat started. This was her answer (to all of them):

Hello I've noticed lots of questions on the trans issue. As part of the Women and Equalities select committee we undertook an enquiry into issues facing trans and non-binary people and heard some heartbreaking accounts of discrimination and hardship faced by both children and adults. As somebody who ran women's' only services I understand the concerns raised by feminist groups and agree that individual cases must be risk-assessed and managed to ensure that a woman's experience is not undermined in the persuit of inequalities that we found in the enquiry.

After the question put by the mother of a child who identified as trans had been reposted by several other people, she finally answered that one as well.

Have you contacted the Tavistock Clinic or some of the other trans parents support groups like Mermaids?

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in your situation. Being certain about anything is difficult as an adult, let alone as a child and as a parent I'm never certain I'm doing the right thing. Of course there should be other help. Like with many things there should be a mixture of medication, talking therapies, support groups and other healthcare. There isn't enough in so many fields, and only having one answer will inevitably never suit everyone.

Yep, you have been vanished, *OldCrone"

Yep it's gone. Mine hasn't though so hopefully they mean what they say.
Now up to 201 supporters. 3 who don't (not because they're not GC necessarily but don't agree with flooding the Web chat) and one fence sitter.
I said 200, that's close enough, I won't post again on the Web chat to update the stats.

In fervently hoping for a JK Rowling moment but my prediction is it'll be a general statement about "needing to have as debate", as per pink news and absolutely nothing concrete to acknowledge safeguarding problems or the harm to and medicalisation of vulnerable young people.

latest summary is by wakemewhenitsallover at 02.21 today
Important point raised since not incorporated

Obv Im a GC supporter of these issues being thoroughly put in the sunlight.

There'll be a neutral sound bite and swift rush on. I'll open the book now: odds 3/1, all payments made in gin.

However I do intend to forward the questions listed here (Thank you Stealth) and JP's replies to my MP after the webchat.

A Jk moment 500-1

Hi Jess - can I ask if you find the silencing of women on this board sinister?

I've got a question for Jess and every single politician in the bloody country.

Where, oh where, have your backbone's gone?

Bunch of cowards, the lot of you. You leave ordinary women to do the job YOU are paid to do, and then throw us under the first passing bus. washing your hands of us like ole Pontius Pilate..

Cowards.

Hear hear, Gertrudesgarden - I'm bloody sick of MPs playing mere lip service to the rights of half the population, while allowing lobby groups to ride roughshod all over them.