Who else would really appreciate a polite discussion of gender issues and the concerns of women at the jess Philips webchat on Monday?

[StealthPolarBear]

I posted on the webchat thread:
Since the questions have already been asked I am not allowed to repeat similar but I want on record that self ID, its potential abuse, protection of vulnerable young people from those who promote transition which can sometimes include puberty blockers, the protection of natal women's rights and the importance of teaching biological facts in schools are big concerns to me.

MNHQ have said they don't want any more comments or questions about gender issues on the Web chat thread which I can understand. However what I do want to make clear is the number of people who may share some or all of my concerns. Otherwise any questions about gender issues are of an equal weight to all others and in fact others, which can be repeated in a different form, may seem to gain more weight.

I've nothing to add that hasn't already been said more eloquently than I ever could but please add me to the list Stealth.

I would like Jess to address the impact of self-id on the ability of rape centres to guarantee:

• that a female human / natal woman / person born without a built-in rape weapon (pick your preferred term from that list) will answer calls and give one-to-one counselling.
• that female humans will not be expected to work in group sessions alongside people born with rape weapons aka male humans of any gender identity.

This is already something that I have been scared about.

This is just a niggle but I would substistute 'concerns' with 'questions' in this bit towards the end; though I can see why you would want to use 'concerns' since we already know from Pink News that they're not allowed.

...silence women who raise concerns about...

I bet I’ve missed the boat but, please can you add my name to?

I've made some suggested changes, below. I hope it's helpful. (Please ignore if not!)

These are issues that affect the fundamental rights of half the population. They are across every conceivable layer of public policy, and affect us from cradle to grave. Are you open to hearing views?

• self ID and its potential abuse: do you accept that it's inevitable that sex predators would take advantage of self-ID to gain access to vulnerable women and children? What do think should be done about this?

• Reform of the Gender Recognition Act - consultation in June 2018, over 100,000 responses , where is it now?

• There has been rise of more than 4,000% of girls referred to the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock. Penny Mordant promised an enquiry. Where is it?

• Spousal escape clause (which you described as 'awful'). It is a popular misconception that this clause a "veto", but it isn't. Spouses have no power to veto sex change or GRA application. What this does is give women the right to exit their marriage before its terms change entirely. Please note at least 3 of the women who recorded their support are directly affected. How do you reconcile this with own views on domestic abuse?

• protection of vulnerable young people from those who promote transition which can sometimes include puberty blockers. Given time many would develop into healthy homosexuals, however data shows that nearly 100% of children given puberty blockers continue medical transition and go onto cross sex hormones. Medical transition leaves children sterile and can mean they never develop the ability to enjoy sexual pleasure as an adult. Vaginal prolapse is common as is hysterectomy. Do you accept that children can't possibly understand the implications well enough to give informed consent to commence such a life-changing process? Do you welcome the possibility of a judicial review into GIDS?

• Are you aware of the many ex GIDS / Tavistock clinicians and senior professionals who have resigned and.or whistleblown over their grave concerns over the treatment regime for children and young people and culture at GIDS? Do you agree this is unprecedented and that we are failing children who identify as trans if we don't listen to the concerns of these professionals?

• social contagion aspects of gender issues in young people

• entrenchment of gender roles - boys don’t play with dolls, if they do, they're girls. Why can't we focus on removing gender stereotypes?
• the protection of natal women's rights

• trans women in sports - male bodied people competing against female bodied women - aspects of safety and fairness

• would a Parliament of 50% men and 50% transwomen be truly representative?

• the importance of teaching biological facts in schools

• what is the definition of a woman?

• the influence on policy and on institutions such as schools by mermaids and stonewall when (correct me if I'm wrong) the content is not evidence based. Schools under pressure to affirm children in social transition despite that being against NHS recommendations (reference available) .

• treatment of lesbians at Pride

• Need for sex segregation in women's refuges

• Mixed prisons - we know women have come to harm, and the 2016 PSI on Care and management of Transexual Prisoners has been withdrawn as a result

• Mixed sex hospital wards generally (there have already been sex assaults).

• Vulnerable/elderly people treated or provided intimate care by a person of the opposite sex on the basis of their gender - unable to complain. Social care in home - how will we ensure the safety of these people?

• Mixed sex locked psych wards (there have already been sex assaults).

• Police recording non crimes in databases that may be reported on a DBS check as a crime.

• police recording crimes by Gender rather than sex, so particular crimes are apparently rising by women offenders

• Free speech generally and on university campuses.

And

• attempts (on social media in particular) to silence women who raise concerns about the above

• people being disciplined at work or losing their jobs (e.g. Maya Forstater) for stating their views/biological fact

• are concerns always prejudiced, even if lots of people share them?

• Would you have preferred Mumsnet to have left this webchat uncensored or are you pleased they have censored it on your behalf?

Would be great to have something on the impact on girls in school and groups such as Guides also of telling girls the must accept transgirls in their spaces. Also the safeguarding risks being ignored for woke cookies.

Too tired to think of sensible wording though!

Also something about the right to demand a same-sex health worker or care-givers (not same gender) especially for intimate procedures.

Tha ks,wakemewhenitsallover, what is it?

Schools under pressure to affirm children in social transition despite that being against NHS recommendations (reference available) .

I have (am!) a real-life impact example of this. My DD is 12yrs old and in yr7 at secondary school.

A child (in a different year group) is MTF - but in my DD's words, "has only taken a girl's name, still has "boy's" hair and wear's boy's school uniform."

This child uses the girl's changing rooms for PE, and there is some cross-over with year groups in the changing rooms, esp last lesson/after school clubs.

The first time this happened, the girls in DD's class said "this is the girls'" - and were told "oh, he is a girl" - seriously.

This child stares at the girls - makes them as uncomfortable as any other male-born child would in the changing rooms.

It upsets the girls, but they are not allowed to say anything because, and I quote "he is a girl". DD doesn't want me to say anything, because she absolutely loves that school, and doesn't want to be the one to make a fuss.

So Jess, why should my 12 yr old DD have to get changed in the presence of a male child, just this one male child, when all the other male children are excluded? Are we really going to tell all our young girls they have to accept certain males in their changing rooms, just because they have taken on a girl's name?

TL:DR - should our 12yr old girls just "put up and shut up" at a male child, who has changed their name to a girl's name, being allowed in their changing rooms?

Because that is what is happening in schools.

@StealthPolarBear

You know this isn't going to work don't you? Jess will say "trans women are women" and that'll be it.

Can you add my name in as well? For all the reasons above...

We know, Elusive.

But even if Jess doesn’t care, we have to make the point.

Can I also add that it doesn’t make us anti trans to have concerns. I have trans friends and I would never wish the abuse and mental harm they have suffered on anyone. No one should experience prejudice and discrimination ever.

My concerns are that the rights of women and girls and safe spaces are being taken away with no regard for their safety. There has to be a better way.

Please count me in as a supporter who would very much like to see these issues discussed. I feel very strongly that these concerns tower over any other concerns. They do not appear to be given airtime anywhere else, so that MN does seem to be the right forum to me.

The fact that the usually lovely MN moderation team appear so keen to close down these questions make me wonder why? Hope it's not that old fashioned fear ...

GinUnicorn definitely agree, well put. In fact the abuse of self-ID will hurt normal trans people as well.

Yes, would like this discussed.

Can we add to the (hands over a pint) list, Stealth?

If some older trans people with dementia forget their adopted gender identity - is transgenderism innate in the way sexuality is?

Dementia does not make people forget they are heterosexual or homosexual - so, this is a peculiar finding.

Age UK and Alzheimers UK both have policies on how to manage the situation - but, the employers of care assistants will be in a very tricky position if the person has a GRC. The law states that person must be treated as per their adopted gender - will that continue even if dressing them in their own clothing causes distress? How will we accommodate the person's desires and dignity? What happens to the employees assisting the person to dress in the legally "wrong", but, biologically and conventionally "right" clothing?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43365446

Thank you for pulling this list together.

If these questions are not addressed by Jess and other politicians then it would be lovely to see them in a double page spread in a broadsheet. Or going viral round social media.

#womensrightsarehumanrights

I'd like to add myself to the list of supporters, I think this issue of the potential loss of the word woman to mean adult human female is vitally important. Truth must remain sayable. We are not a subset of the human race, of men; we are unique, we hold the potential for life within us, we matter, we have the right to define ourselves, we know who and what we are, and male, xy, is not us.

Totally agree. A self ID specific chat would be a great idea.

I would like this discussed

I'm totally in agreement with you @StealthPolarBear

But I hope we don't just "pick out" Ms Phillips for these questions. Maybe because obviously a lot of us feel that she may be "secretly" more sympathetic to feminism than other candidates?

We should ensure that all Labour Party leadership nominations are asked exactly the same questions about the fundamental definition of a woman, and the ways that our rights will be protected (and women's lives prioritised?) by the Labour Party.

We need to be very . careful that we don't expect more of a) the women candidates b) the ones who we have more hopes for as feminist candidates.

PS by "feminist" I mean standard feminist ie what we now have to specify as "gender critical." I hate having to add that adjective, because to me, being critical of gender - as a power structure which enables patriarchy - is what feminism just is.

Agreed

The webchat says they hope to have all the candidates on over the next few weeks