Is my child racist?! I don’t know what to do!

[Namechangefour]

Before I begin, I should say: I’m mixed race though look very white.

I was telling my my 5-year-old that I am going to look for someone to look after him after-school one day a week from next term. And he said, “Fine but please can you not choose anyone black?” I drilled this down and down and down and he meant what he said. Not someone black.

I said “Why?”

And he said “I don’t know.”

I said, “You know grandma was black?” (He never met her, she died before he was born).

And he said, “I know, but I don’t want you to choose anyone black.”

I said, “You know mummy is half black?”

And he said, “I know, but please don’t choose anyone black.”

I had absolutely no idea what to say. I remember reading once that you shouldn’t shame children for saying things like that, and we were in a cafe at the time, so all I said was, “You know what you said isn’t good, right?”

And he said, “I don’t know all the things yet!”

I didn’t want to get into it (mostly because I didn’t want to get it wrong) so I said we’d talk about it later.

But I am still totally unable to think what to say. I’m heartbroken. Completely and utterly heartbroken.

Can someone give me some advice? I don’t know what to do! And I don’t know why he’s saying things like that! We live somewhere pretty multicultural in london, though his school is quite cringe-worthily white and middle class.

They are discriminatory. Not everything that is discriminatory is racist. But everything that is racist is discriminatory.

Anyone opposed to faith based hospitals? Or in favour of them? Why not? You might have to go to a hospital further away. It would still be free though. But you could only be treated by a doctor of the same faith...

A faith based hospital would not be racist at all now would it? Because as so many of you have pointed out faith and race are not the same.

They are discriminatory

Obviously. They are restricted to pupils of that faith. But that doesn’t make them racist because race and faith are not synonymous. Rosa from Manila can send her children to the excellent Catholic school. Stop conflating faith and race.

Stop conflating faith and race to make the unsubstantiated accusation that faith schools are racist.

Faith admissions are indirectly racist because Christianity is disproportionately white in Britain. The effect is heightened when you look at CofE and Catholic populations.

Religion and race are strongly correlated in this country. As you say, intent is irrelevant. Faith admissions disproportionately benefit white, middle class children.

I’m not conflating it. The facts are the facts. No amount of ‘little Rosa’ anecdotes alter the makeup of Christianity in Britain.

Faith admissions are indirectly racist because Christianity is disproportionately white in Britain

This has become comical

So what? The UK is predominantly white. By the way, I didn’t call Rosa ‘little.’ You did. Why did you add a diminutive adjective to Rosa from Manila?

JassyRadlett

Do you actually know what the term racist means?

And all of you are happy to have non racist faith based hospitals?

Public sector hospitals in the UK are as grim as state sector schools.

@Namechangefour he’s not racist. He’s a little boy who as he so sweetly said doesn’t ‘know all the things yet’.
I wouldn’t read too much into it.
Teach him about your history and about the world in the same way you would have done if this hadn’t been said.

So what? The UK is predominantly white. By the way, I didn’t call Rosa ‘little.’ You did. Why did you add a diminutive adjective to Rosa from Manila?

Ah that’s my apology. I misread and thought Rosa was the child in your example. Apologies to Rosa.

The UK is predominantly white but we have a significant BAME population. Faith admissions advantage CofE and Catholics in a significant proportion of state schools. Which means they are disproportionately disadvantageous to BAME kids and poor kids. This is borne out by analysis, some of which I mentioned upthread.

We can either be fine with that and say ‘well, we’re mostly white as a country, they should just try harder to fit in’ or you can say ‘I think it would be better to have a level playing field for school admissions so that regardless of race, income or background all kids have an equal chance of going to their local school.’

You don’t like the terms ‘racist impact’ or ‘racially discriminatory’. What words would you use for a system that gives (better off) white kids a leg up?

We live in a very mixed area - mostly white and Asian and DD's Uncle is a black as you can get - family originally from Gambia but London born and bred for generations.

She wasn't used to seeing such black skin and used to screech "Uncle X" at the two very black guys down the road. It was mortifying.

TBF she also used to scream "Daddy" at anyone on a bike. [double blush]. She was only tiny but it was absolutely mortifying.

At least you can have a conversation with him. Do you have any family photos you can sit down with him - just get him talking?

“ Faith schools restrict selection to students of that faith. This is true of all faith schools not just CoE. ”

I agree. I don’t understand the relevance of your point.

Yes that makes it DISCRIMINATORY. That’s the point. All faith schools are discriminatory. We try and minimise discrimination in this modern world.
Why do we condone it when it comes to education in the UK in the 21st century?
Hence my hospital and road (a public sector good) analogy. We wouldn’t tolerate it there so why do we accept it in education?!

It always astounds me when people think that small children are too young to have picked up social views and prejudices.

They have learned to speak - complex vocabulary and grammar - just by listening and observing the people around them! How can you possibly imagine that they haven't also picked up deeply-entrenched social attitudes to gender and race? Understanding their world is a survival imperative for small children, and they are masters at it.

Fwiw, research says that not talking about discrimination by gender, race, sexual orientation etc - and just hoping they will absorb your liberal attitudes - is a mistake. They don't - and it leaves them vulnerable to other people's discriminatory views, since they have no context to understand and evaluate what they hear. I've erred that way myself - we don't want to tell our beautiful, trusting children that these ugly things exist - but it really is important to discuss early and often (in an age-appropriate way of course)

I think it would be better to have a level playing field for school admissions

So you are ideologically opposed to faith schools? Would you like them to be banned? What about private schools? Should they be banned too? By the way, you didn’t answer my question. Why did you add the diminutive adjective ‘little’ to my example of Rosa from Manila? Whose kids go to the excellent Catholic school?

Backdoor selection is one of the major scandals of the education system

@BertrandRussell

Sorry to be a bit thick - but can you explain / define 'back door selection'?

I googled it and saw sort of reverse explanations / illustrations - eg certain schools doing back door selection by excluding more pupils that is usually.

Is 'back door selection' applying certain criteria for selection which , whether by design or otherwise, are proxies for other selection criteria?

“So you are ideologically opposed to faith schools?”

I am certainly opposed to a system that gives people of faith access to a third more tax payer funded schools than people without faith.

“ Is 'back door selection' applying certain criteria for selection which , whether by design or otherwise, are proxies for other selection criteria?”
Yes. Faith criteria and expensive uniform are examples of “backdoor selection”

Hi JassyRadlett, I asked you before if you actually knew what the term racist meant. Do you?

Which means they are disproportionately disadvantageous to BAME kids and poor kids.
No, they are not disadvantageous to BAME kids. All races have the same opportunity. That some choose to make themselves illegible through their choice of religion does not automatically mean the school's policies are racist/disadvantageous etc. The most they can be accused of is mere discrimination through selection, which every selection in the world is. School tests are, exams are, driving tests are, clubs are, you and I are with our choice of partner.

When you married your partner, were you racist? Were white men disadvantageous because they were less likely to be chosen by you? Are you racist then?

We can either be fine with that and say ‘well, we’re mostly white as a country, they should just try harder to fit in’ or you can say ‘I think it would be better to have a level playing field for school admissions so that regardless of race, income or background all kids have an equal chance of going to their local school.’

Or you can say if you want to go to a criteria-led Church school, follow the Church. If not, go elsewhere or start your own religious-based or non-religious based school and send your child there. You have equal opportunity to attend any school in the UK as much as any other race.

I am certainly opposed to a system that gives people of faith access to a third more tax payer funded schools than people without faith

Then elect a government which has abolition of faith schools on its manifesto.

I live near a town with lots of primary schools. The one that is considered the best is very rural and for historical reasons no longer has enough children within walking distance to make a cohort. To get to it you need either to drive or pay bus fares. That is a classic case of entirely unintended backdoor selection. It’s a very desirable school to many because it is almost entirely populated by privileged middle class children.

To get to it you need either to drive or pay bus fares

Paying bus fares is an example of racism?

Thanks, @BertrandRussell