Would you vote Labour if you earned over £80,000?

[NoMansGE]

When doing more research on labours tax policies DH and I noticed that this starts from salaries of £80,000. This would effect our household as that is DHs salary. We both agree with their campaign for 'no more billionaires'.. but we aren't billionaires. We are a normal family who live a comfortable but far from luxury lifestyle. We're both torn how to vote, as it would usually be labour.

This thread makes me think of a race on Facebook about privilege.

I think it was take a step forward if your parents are together, if you knew your father, if you never had to help pay bills, if you never experienced racism etc.

Of course hard work is important but you can’t discount privilege and trying to give others opportunities can only be a positive thing.

I’m not a huge Corbyn fan or a labour supporter but even as a higher earner I believe in helping poorer members of society.

But OP you are not paying more tax and then getting nothing back. Tax may be higher but look at the intended spending of it - improved NHS services that you will benefit from, improved schools and MH services and dentistry. You are going to spend money on those things anyway, and then only you / your family benefit. If you pay it through taxes, you're still spending the money but society benefits.

Don't look at these policies from a how much will it cost me position, look what we will all gain from them.

I am happy to pay more tax to know that we are all benefiting.

No I won't. I've had to give up work because our son is ill.
I'm sick of stuff being either individual or household to suit the system.

Individual: No child benefit because one of us earns too much - not household based where the same income is taxed less (two personal allowances)

Household: student loans system - seems fair but easy to play the system for separated parents

Individual: tax

Household: benefits

So you're an individual when it suits the state and not when it doesn't.

And £80k goes not very far after tax with no CB and student loan to top up when two people on £40k pay lower rate tax, get CB (do have to top up loan tbf)

Yes, I would. I do think those who earn more should pay more tax. I looked at the calculator, which says I'll pay an extra £3.5k a year in tax. For the additional services we will all benefit from as a society, that's fine with me.

calculate.forlabour.com

I don’t choose my vote based on salary. I vote for who I think will be best long term for my children.

Even if I were a higher rate tax payer in future I still wouldn’t change my vote.

I don’t think they are the right party and I think tax credits created too many opting out of work or doing little and that was never going to be good for the next generation.

Yes, I would. I do think those who earn more should pay more tax. I looked at the calculator, which says I'll pay an extra £3.5k a year in tax. For the additional services we will all benefit from as a society, that's fine with me.

But what happens a few years time when the money runs out again due to inefficiency and over-spending. Would you pay another £3.5k p.a. on top of the extra £3.5k you'd already be paying?

Don't forget Blair's "extra 1% NIC to save the NHS". It didn't. Then they increased it by another 1% a few years later. It still didn't. Labour trebled NHS spending, but most was lost to higher wages for GPs to do less work, scandalous PFI deals for new hospitals with hotel style atriums, and general increases in waste and inefficiency.

IF, and only IF, Labour could guarantee to be more sensible with their spending and cut down on waste and inefficiency, so that the "extra £3.5k" was a one off, then, maybe they may be electable.

I'd rather see efficiency within the NHS rather than some sainted cash cow that can't be criticised

Yes, yes I will. Because in Scotland I need to vote for the party most likely to unseat the useless SNP MP. Can’t say I’m thrilled about it though.

@user1497207191

How are you so sure that the money will run out due to inefficiency and overspending under Labour, and that the same thing wouldn't happen under the Tories?

Despite being a high earner, I dislike the Conservative attitude of every man for himself, as well as the hostile environment they have created and continue to perpetuate for non-white people in the UK.

In my local area the Conservatives always win by a landslide. I've voted Labour and Lib Dem in the past when I lived elsewhere, but not sure who I'll vote for yet, given the Tories are a shoo-in here (this will be the first time I've voted in this area due to a house move).

For the significant minority of posters on this thread who actually care about, and are appalled by, the normalisation of extreme anti-Jewish hate within the Labour party:

Here is a news story about the blood/red paint that was used to vandalise the synagogue in Brighton on the anniversary of Kristallnacht (also Remembrance Sunday)
www.theargus.co.uk/news/18025395.red-liquid-splashed-middle-street-synagogues-front-doors/

The Labour Party in Brighton have previously called for people to 'march on the synagogue' in protest at a member being suspended for anti-Israel comments:
www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-member-amanda-bishop-calls-for-march-on-local-synagogue-to-protest-antisemitism-suspension-1.483553

And on the same day that the synagogue was vandalised, the Brighton Labour Party posted this on Twitter:
twitter.com/LevyGill/status/1192847304807591936

Please, I beg you, non-Jews of the UK who are decent people, please open your eyes to this before it's too late. We are sliding into this very, very fast.

I've been watching, and being horrified, for some years.

Could you show where that revolting meme in the LevyGill tweet was posted by Brighton Labour Party, please?

Because according to the LevyGill tweet you linked, the meme appears with the name of a Facebook account called The People's Republic of Brighton & Hove. That doesn't seem to be Brighton Labour Party. When I googled for PRBH I did find a Facebook account, but not the revolting meme (it did have a rather cheesy meme supporting use of “Happy Holidays” and about valuing different religions, including Judaism).

The fact that ANYONE posted the vile meme, anywhere, is appalling and a sign of rising antisemitism. It makes me very scared and worried.

But what I can see doesn't back up the claim of that LevyGill Twitter account that this was done by the Labour Party.

Doesn't mean there isn't something I haven't seen, which is why I'm asking.

Unrelated to antisemitism, I've kept a passing eye on use of Facebook and Twitter to spread disinformation in the last few years, and have seen faked “Facebook postings”, fake accounts, troll accounts claiming to support X but then slipping in stuff that's the opposite... This is the internet and political meme wars and lots of anonymous posters behind pseudonyms and internet connections – even us here on MN. It's properly nasty stuff.

I've now followed up another of the stories. I'm relieved to say the red liquid is now not believed to be anything malicious. Although it's completely understandable that people were worried it was.

9 Nov
www.theargus.co.uk/news/18025395.red-liquid-splashed-middle-street-synagogues-front-doors/
A spokesman for the Sussex Jewish Rep Council announced today that the group was working with police and charity Community Security Trust (CST), which “protects British Jews from anti-Semitism”, to look into the incident.
A spokesman said: “This is being dealt with, with the utmost seriousness.
“Please do not listen to or spread inflammatory rumours about these incidents.”

11 Nov
www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/11/11/police-reassure-jewish-community-that-red-paint-thrown-on-synagogue-was-just-a-drink/
A spokesman for the Sussex Jewish Representative Council said: “We are relieved to know that the substance thrown at the doors of Middle Street synagogue was only a drink and, given the location, in the heart of the Brighton night-time economy, has been deemed not to be targeted or malicious.

“However, this only highlights the high level of tension and fear that exists within the Jewish community currently that so many people jumped to the assumption that this was an antisemitic incident.”

Now following up the other story, which definitely is about two actual members of the Labour Party.

The Jewish Chronicle article linked above reports that one member was suspended for anti-Israel comments which (from the info I can see) are definitely antisemitic rather than merely criticism of a nation state. She was suspended.

Another member suggested "marching to the synagogue" in protest about this suspension, and was herself suspended for it.

So definitely over-the-line behaviour by two people who were members of Brighton & Hove Labour Party. I don't know what happened to them after suspension and whether they've been expelled.

DuchessMustard, I completely agree with you about the rise of antisemitism and it scares me.

I haven't decided who I'm voting for yet, and if it's for Labour it will be through gritted teeth, like a poster above, because of this issue.

Where I differ from you is that I can't in all good faith make an appeal for people to not vote Labour, because if I abstain in order to keep my hands supposedly clean I may be putting Boris Johnson and pals in power.

I know it's fashionable to state things in binary contrasts, so if Labour has an antisemitism problem then the Tories must have an Islamophobia problem. But I think the Tories have an antisemitism problem too, particularly in their current condition.

Too many of them are too cosy with far-right, openly antisemitic, racist parties in Europe. They're very easily blown about by Farage and fear he'll take their votes or set the mob on them in the press. Under Theresa May Farage was described as "in power but not in office".

And Theresa May, who is by no means the nastiest of them and possibly has never been caught saying anything racist ( I can't remember), had no qualms about passing legislation which predictably persecuted black British people and almost certainly caused deaths, viz the hostile environment and its effects on the Windrush generation. She was also big on population registration (including via school censuses) in a way that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck because I know how that was used in the 1930s and 40s – and someone in Johnson's office (Cummings?) has been trying to exploit that data with no regard at all for ethics or data protection, for "his guy's" local gain.

I don't yet have reason to think they've turned that weapon on Jewish people specifically, but they're merrily turning it on others and even if voted out may have built the infrastructure for the next guys to use.

I find them truly terrifying in all aspects, and I really think there are no depths to which the current leadership wouldn't sink.

I earn more than 80k. I am not voting Labour. Absolutely no way.

It is an indictment of the current state of the Labour party that I have to even THINK about antisemitism in my decision of whether to vote for them.

And an indictment of the state of the Tory party, that I might still vote Labour as the "least worst" of the two.

Who on earth thinks paying an extra £8 will cure all the ills. Labour will squander the cash al la BT broadband idea. There will be no revenue coming in, no investment, pensions for a majority will be hit because they invest in BT, and no competition because they either try and nationalise Virgin, Sky etc or just throw tax payers money into a bottomless pit.

And they seem proud of this idea. Still - it makes Corbyn etc totally unelectable. Wonder also what as happened to the more moderates ie, Cooper and Starmer? Are they horribly embarrassed by what is happening?

And Theresa May, who is by no means the nastiest of them and possibly has never been caughtsayinganything racist ( I can't remember), had no qualms about passing legislation which predictably persecuted black British people and almost certainly caused deaths, viz the hostile environment and its effects on the Windrush generation.

Yes. I was born in the UK to a Windrush gen commonwealth citizen, I have spent every single day of my life in the UK, (and my other parent is 100% British parent), and I had to put my life on hold while I waited for the Windrush Task force to grant/confirm British citizenship. And I only bloody dared apply, once my commonwealth citizen parent had died, because they begged me not to risk alerting the home office to their existence because of the secret deportations that everyone was hearing about.

I 100% do not want to endorse any part of Labour's leadership making my fellow British citizens feeling unwelcome, because I have felt a touch of that over the last few years under the current regime.

The conservative party were responsible for a lot of misery and I don't think the task force has got through all the applications from people affected yet. This is my own country, where I was born, for whom one of my great-grandparents fought in WWI, and I had to beg for citizenship and be fingerprinted to even apply.

I live in a two-party constituency, where I have the party that has already done all this to Windrush people, whose membership have shown they are happy with a leader who is openly and vilely racist, and whom I do not trust with the welfare of any other minority group, or I have the Labour party.

If I help the conservatives to gain this seat by voting for a third party, I am endorsing the party that has persecuted the windrush generation, and persecuted disabled people (there was a report today about a man who dropped dead in the JobCentre after being declared fit to work a few months ago). I absolutely do not think the conservative party is a friend to British Jews. No-one who condones the comments Johnson has made would think twice about dogwhistle anti-semitic comments.

However, the Conservative party isn't openly associated with anti-semiticism in the media even if they are, so if I vote Labour, am I signalling to other people that I am fine with Jews being made to feel unwelcome?

Am no fan of Corbyn, but Boris is more of a “thug”, eg seeking to close Parliament to avoid Brexit debate.

@JamieVardysHavingAParty
However, the Conservative party isn't openly associated with anti-semiticism in the media even if they are, so if I vote Labour, am I signalling to other people that I am fine with Jews being made to feel unwelcome?

Unfortunately yes, and it's not just a media creation. Labour is rotten with antisemitism.

Many of my closest friends are voting Labour & it breaks my heart. I don't know how - or if - our friendships will survive this election.

For what it's worth, I think that what was done to the Windrush immigrants was beyond disgusting, unbelievably distressing, & I would never ever vote for a party that sanctioned it in any way.

I am probably top 3% of earning bracket. I would pay more tax but not with Labour at the helm. I'd worry we are asking for unrealistic deliverables.

DuchessMustard

Thank you. I really appreciate your words.

I so wish we had proportional representation, or transferable votes or anything.

I cannot enable the tory party to gain this seat, but I can't throw a different minority under the bus either. Conservatives are unacceptable, but so is putting British Jews in peril. I am so sorry that this has happened, and that we have not done more to stop this situation arising.

I should add that I mentioned Windrush just as an example of how low the Tories are prepared to stoop. I'm not for a moment suggesting that anyone should throw themselves or anyone else under the bus as some sort of “swap” for other vulnerable groups. That would be horrific.

The thing is, I genuinely believe there is antisemitism near the top of the Tory party as well. At the very least, there are people unashamed about using antisemitic dogwhistles if they think it will benefit them.

But it doesn't get the same amount of coverage as the Labour Party, and what coverage there is tends to be benefit-of-the-doubt.

Rees-Mogg (retweeter of far-right AfD), seems particularly prone to such “gaffs.”

Were Jacob Rees-Mogg's Soros comments antisemitic? Not for the reason you think
www.thejc.com/comment/comment/jacob-rees-mogg-george-soros-parliament-brexit-eu-antisemitic-remarks-opinion-comment-1.489706
Calling Mr Rees-Mogg an antisemite simply for pointing to a wealthy Jew's [George Soros'] financial contributions to foreign political movements is not necessarily antisemitic. But assuming he funded the official 2016 Remain campaign – with no basis – may indeed have come from a dark place.

That was just a few weeks after referring to some of his opponents, who included John Bercow and Oliver Letwin (both of Jewish background), as "the Illuminati":
www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/news/2019/sep/jacob-rees-moggs-alarming-cry-illuminati

I don't think there's a party likely to get into government which is inherently safe for Jewish people (and it hurts to say that). I also take Jamie's point, that once antisemitism has been made part of a party's brand in the media, there's a risk that a vote for the party may be interpreted as a vote for that brand.

I also can't know who will actually behave worse in this respect, when in office. I suspect the Tories, but what do I know?

I do know that, whoever gets in, there'll be job of work for us all in opposing antisemitism. It's rising at the moment, and particularly being stoked via the internet, and also by people for whom it's a useful tool and hang the consequences. I feel sick typing that, but that's where we are.

No. Even though I earn well under 80k I still won't vote Labour. Ever.