Childless couples

[letsgohooray]

I came to the realisation that 90% of our family life involves or revolves around the dc. Either driving them somewhere or organising something for them or getting stuff for them etc. I genuinely want to know what childless couples do when they are not working? I want a breakdown!!! Weekday evenings and weekends. What do you do with your time? DO you spend it with your dp or away on activities? What do you talk about with each other. It is a whole world I can not imagine.

mydog you are making me depressed reading your writing.. I feel like you are painting parenthood with so much darkness as if you want parents to feel they made a worse decision than you..

It feels very spiteful.

But the thing is, mydog doesn't actually know, does she? Never having actually experienced it.

I described my family life above, and it's nothing like her suicidal, crim-riddled Eastenders episode.

So her posts don't make me depressed. More bemused.

mydog really has an unfortunate set of friends and acquaintances and perhaps as a result, has a very negative view of parenthood. Shame really as most parents love their dc to the moon and back.

I am saying it makes me more convinced that I made the right decision because how could I have known whether my children would cause me grief?

Well yes if you never have children you never take the risk.

you could say the same about getting married - how do you know he isn't going to be unfaithful/mean/cause you grief down the road and break your heart. As they say all great love stories end unhappily - either through death or separation. but yet you took the chance. There is no guarantee so people just make the best decision they can.

I completely respect people who just decide not to have children for whatever reason - as I said previously I have 2 bils who will not have children - for different reasons - and they and their wives have absolutely lovely lives - ones I envy sometimes. And I respect your decision mydog and that it was the best one for you. But you don't need to make out having children is a pit of misery to justify that decision. For most people it is a mixed bag - lots of great moments, lots of worry, lots of joy, bits of misery. Bit like life.

I think some parents sometimes believe that the child-free spend more time thinking about them and their choices than we actually do.

Most child-free people have extensive experience of being in a family of origin - from birth to around 18 years of age. Family life is not such a mystery to us as you might think.

We have siblings and friends who have kids. Some in marriages that have survived and some where they didn't make it. We see lovely idyllic loving families and families with dysfunction, unhappiness and pain.

The majority of us child-free have a very good idea of what family life looks and feels like. I suspect that's why many are child-free.

We've made choices about kids for all sorts of reasons and are all just getting on with a huge variety of lifestyles - as we've seen from this thread.

We all have bills to pay, homes to manage, extended family and friends to support, cars to insure, money to earn, washing to do, meals to cook and toilets to clean. Some are well off and some struggle financially.

I have never started a conversation about this with people who have kids. I "get" and respect why they might want a family and don't care to challenge them about it. It is of little interest to me.

However, I've been challenged and insulted many times by people with kids who seem much more interested and opinionated about my life choice to not have kids than I am about theirs to have them.

I've even been told I'll never fully be an adult because I don't have kids.

I've been told I'm greedy, ungrateful or selfish because they have created children who will look after me when I'm old!

I quietly think: "yes, and my taxes have paid for education, health, maternity leave, child support and all sorts of other things for families and children".

But I'm happy about that, because I believe this is how society works. I don't think it's too much to ask that a child free person can be treated by a young doctor or nurse in our old age!

Sometimes it feels almost like my life needs to be framed as meaningless, empty or trivial to help others justify their sacrifices.

Sometimes it feels almost like my life needs to be framed as meaningless, empty or trivial to help others justify their sacrifices.

I’m sorry that you went through this experience. It does seem like there’s is judge mental people on both sides of the coin though.

I have certainly been questioned on my decisions to have a child. And I have most certainly been made to feel like imma dysfunctional society member because I was on maternity leave, and again because I got pregnant again.. even though I am not on any benefits and I’m working from home.

I don’t think childfree people sit at home contemplating our choices, but the resentful ones sound like they do.

IABUqueen that's horrid. It would be nice if we could all just respect each others choices and have the wisdom not impose our views and make unkind personal
personal comments to each other. Life's hard enough!

I am not trying to be spiteful. The honest truth I do think people who chose to have children made a worse choice than I did. I don't really see anything positive in having children I'm afraid.

That's my view though and I am entitled to it. I have had enough parents over the years tell me I am not normal, I am not a real woman, I will be lonely when I get old, ask why I got married if I didn't want children. That's their opinions and they have said them to my face. I have never said to any parents face that I think they are mad to have had children or asked why they did.

Yes there are, obviously, good things to have children but in my opinion they are outweighed by the bad. Health problems (I don't have to keep going to the loo or getting up in the night to pee and that's just one of the minor problems although one that just seems accepted if you have a baby). Money problems, relationship problems (a relationship is far more likely to succeed if you are childfree). None of my childfree friends and family are divorced but the same certainly cannot be said of the ones with children many of whom have been divorced and married more than once.

Not just my friends that I look at and think that either. I have again this morning listed to neighbours both sides shouting (and one screaming) at their children before they go to school. Oh such fun. I could not be doing with all the hassle. My dogs don't give me all that grief

Keep going to the loo? That only happened to me for the final months of pregnancy. What an odd comment.
You need new neighbours, dog.

Part of a hildless couple here.

This week we're going to the cinema a couple of times, I like to cook so I tend to do fairly complicated meals from scratch once or twice and then normally cook from scratch every evening, we have friends round for board games this Saturday, and are going to the pub for dinner and drinks with friends tonight, I go to the gym 3-4 times a week, and we go on holiday quite a lot.

We talk about books, films, politics - normal stuff.

I'm not actually convinced that we do anything couples with kids do, based on my sisters and brothers who all have kids. We just do more of it. And we do have kids in our lives - nieces and nephews. Would have loved kids, actually, but sadly were not able to for medical reasons.

mydog
Yes there are, obviously, good things to have children but in my opinion they are outweighed by the bad. Health problems (I don't have to keep going to the loo or getting up in the night to pee neither do I or many, many mothers. Once again, who are you mixing with????
and if you really want to focus on health, Women who have been pregnant appear to be at a lower risk for breast cancer, endometrial cancer, and ovarian cancer and are 72% more likely to die of cancer. They also have a shorter life expectancy than mothers.....guess that puts that point to bed....

None of my childfree friends and family are divorced but the same certainly cannot be said of the ones with children many of whom have been divorced and married more than once. once again, you mix with a non-representative bunch of people. Also, studies have shown that any increase in divorce in parents over child free couples is mitigated by the fact that child free couples are less likely to get married in the first place so duh, obviously, there will be more divorces amongst the married population

My dogs don't give me all that grief...they also don't give you the same joy....or shouldn't. Dogs are great. I love dogs. They are not people.

I think people who don't want children are weird - in the sense that I don't understand it, not that there is something wrong with them!

I also think people who have dogs are weird - the thought of cleaning up dog poo makes me want to vomit! That's prob what a childless by choice person thinks about having children 😁

mydogisthebest your posts read really sad and I wonder if you have had sadness in your life when you were younger

I have had enough parents over the years tell me I am not normal, I am not a real woman, I will be lonely when I get old, ask why I got married if I didn't want children. That's their opinions and they have said them to my face.

I was in my 40s when I had DS, having previously been contentedly childfree, and I certainly had all these things said to me, too, when I didn't have a child, and wasn't planning to.

Yes, they were unpleasant, ignorant and prejudicial remarks, and I tended to be extremely 'direct' in my replies, but they didn't make me construct a gloomy pantheon of reasons why people who had children had made a dopey decision and ruined their health and marriages, and condemned themselves to a lifetime of delights ranging from shouting at toddlers to suicide attempts because of the criminal and drug-related pursuits of children and grandchildren.

That is as wrong-headed and prejudicial as the dimwit view of those without children as lazy, selfish, immature hedonists who will die alone eaten by their pets.

Not having children is a completely valid choice. I chose in the end to have a child, but that didn't change my mind, and I haven't forgotten what my (very good) life was like seven years ago -- not having children remains for me an entirely valid choice, and a good one. But not having children does not need to be justified by constructing an imaginary doom-laden version of the trials of parenthood.

Dusty, the only part of your very thoughtful and perceptive post I don't agree with is this:

The majority of us child-free have a very good idea of what family life looks and feels like. I suspect that's why many are child-free.

I was child-free until my 40s, so have been a non-parent for far longer than I've been a parent (I have a 7 year old), and I simply don't think this is true.

I've been around and closely involved in families and children of all ages all my life, and am the eldest of a big family myself, and I think being a member of a family of origin (ie being a son/daughter or sibling) or looking at the family dynamic of a close friend or sibling, for instance, is utterly different to actually being the parent of a child.

Just as observing other people's marriages/relationships, even from up close, is not the same as being in a relationship or marriage yourself.

Which is the real issue with choosing to have a child and why I am always baffled by people who say 'I always wanted to be a mother' it is simply a leap in the dark. You can't know what it's going to be like, and if your life without children is good, the only real reason to have a child is --- curiosity?

Good Lord @mydog who on Earth are all these chronically ill, criminally inclined, anti social, depressed parents you mix with?

I simply do not recognise what you describe as 'parenting' at all.

You're in a great position to see both sides Afreet! Great post.

I do understand what you're saying about the child-free not knowing exactly what it feels like to be a parent. Fair point.

I guess I didn't express what I meant clearly enough. Which was that I, like many others, I have experienced growing up in a nuclear family for 18 years of my life. I also only have to think about my childhood neighbours and friends to summon memories of all sorts of different families. My rather depressed family was the one in the street in wanted to belong to the least. 😂

Some folks go on from unhappy childhoods determined to create their own utopia. Some succeed.

All I really meant was that people don't make decisions in a vacuum, and 18 years is quite a long time to observe and experience what a house full of adults and children feels like.

It doesn't feel fair for people to completely dismiss a massive and formative life experience of mine just because I've subsequently chosen not to go down that route myself in my own adult life.

I know what I know and my childhood and family are very real to me and that experience has influenced a lot of who I have become. Some of it positive! Haha.

And I don't mean you Afreet. You're clearly NOT this.

I am now talking about the people who I and others have talked about on this thread. The ones who would like to think we child-free are somehow detached from reality, alien and unable to have any insight at all into family life - despite it being a path we've clearly chosen not to take for ourselves.

I would argue that we've had such deep insight that we've chosen a life path more suited to our temperament and needs. I for one love children and have worked with children most of my life. I simply didn't want the responsibility of parenthood.

I thought I.would probably be a resentful, inconsistent parent whose depression, attachment issues and bone laziness were not a recipe for parent of the year. Why put a kid through it? I have never had the mythical 'maternal instinct'. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I would have had five perfect children once I tried it. The thing is I'll never know and I don't care.

In other parts of the thread , this business of "Ms X must be a very sad person/very angry person etc" refrain is also insulting.

It's projecting and judging and it's about you and not about "Ms X".

There are many many 'right' choices in life. And plenty of wrong ones.

It might be inconceivable (pardon the pun) to you that a person without or with kids could be happy, fulfilled and perfectly well adjusted. But that's your stuff, not theirs. Your life choice to have / not have kids does not afford you status of any kind. It's just a life choice.

As for having kids to prevent loneliness in old age, sadly I have met many very lovely but lonely people who gave their children everything. And those beautiful, loving, successful kids are now living far away for careers or love, or have distanced themselves from their parents because they prefer their in-laws or because they just prefer their own small family unit: "Sorry Mum, Christmas is just for 'Our Little Family this year".

Kids are a very expensive and risky instance policy against loneliness in old age.

I think that's all ❤️

@Afreet I'm about to become a parent at 41 (DH 46) and completely agree with your comments.

I was always adamant I wanted to be childfree - then hit 40 and started to have second thoughts and fortunately for us we conceived easily enough. Baby due Sept.

I'm hoping we have made the right decision! But too late to worry now. We would have been very happy remaining childfree, but hope we will be equally happy in a different way as parents.

We have never had the freedom that comes with not being parents - we have a stack of animals which means we can't go away without extensive planning ahead and we are total home bodies anyway - so I don't think all that much will change day to day for us. We will just have less sleep!

I did have same experiences as @DustyGrapevine though with people being very critical of my choice. And those same people are being irritatingly smug and telling me how hard and awful it will be now I am pregnant! But hey ho, they are just idiots.

and if you really want to focus on health, Women who have been pregnant appear to be at a lower risk for breast cancer, endometrial cancer, and ovarian cancer and are 72% more likely to die of cancer. They also have a shorter life expectancy than mothers.....guess that puts that point to bed....

Not really. Is there a typo in your sentence or are women who've been pregnant 72% more likely to die of cancer as you start?

I thought I.would probably be a resentful, inconsistent parent whose depression, attachment issues and bone laziness were not a recipe for parent of the year. Why put a kid through it? I have never had the mythical 'maternal instinct'. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I would have had five perfect children once I tried it. The thing is I'll never know and I don't care.

For what it’s worth, I feel a lot of my child free friends have made their choice because they care about children so much so and understand parenting and it’s responsibilities deeply enough to feel worried about not being able to fulfill the role... or about not being able to fulfill it while their lives are running smoothly and not compromising their happiness..

I come from a difficult childhood myself and I have always felt worried about whether I’m the right person to become a parent.. but I decided to take the risk and make it an experience that shapes me.. it was totally a decision based on what I felt worked for me. I don’t think it works for everyone. I also didn’t have as much insight into the sacrifices of parenting which I know now..

Had I known, I would weigh up the choice of wether to have kids or not a lot more critically. But knowing myself, I probably would’ve still gone into it.. simply because for me it felt right. Not because I believe it’s the right thing to do for everyone.

I still admire the wisdom of my friends who have so much “mothering instincts” yet don’t just think this translates to them wanting kids.. because it’s not about what they want but more about what the child needs.. and not all circumstances or individuals can cater for a child’s needs- especially when in this day and age the full responsibility falls on the core family and parents and so the child will be compromised if there’s some instability.

Anyhow. I agree with both sides.. I have to admit that I had my kids for “me”. As it made meeee happy. It wasn’t because I was sure that I’m the right kind of person to parent a child.. and for that, hats off to those who have a more responsible way of making that decision based on what everyone involved needs.

I had an uncle who was child free by choice. He had a very difficult childhood in a war torn country and he didn’t feel he can provide the stability a child needs.. but he was the most loving caring person about children that I have ever seen. He worried about us nieces and nephews and derived his happiness from ours. Every child in my family felt a huge deep loss when he passed away.. he was our backbone when we needed someone to lean on when our parents gave us a hard time..

I miss him to this very day.. there was a child inside him that connected with us all.

He was one of the few people I met that helped me understand that being a parent is a responsibility not a privilege. And that it’s a huge huge responsibility due to the impact it has on children.

So by far, I do not think childfree people are selfish. On the contrary, I sometimes want their input in my parenting because they see things from first principles and not from the eyes of a tired parent who just wants to get by and many times their input means so much to me..

Again we can’t paint everyone with the same brush. I’m a parent of 2. A young (ish) mother and so a lot of my friends still remain child free and have a huge positive impact on my parenting.

I wonder whether the resentment has been built up because of society pressures on women who refrain from having kids. Hadn’t affected my friends yet as they’re still not in their 30s even.

Thanks, Dusty. And I get you. My own upbringing was quite deprived, and I think that experience has certainly influenced two of my siblings, who have chosen not to have children. Which I honour.

And I agree on the madness of having a child to look after you in old age. I full anticipate DS will be living his life, and that it's very likely it won't be in the same country as DH and I are living by then we've moved around a fair bit and I wouldn't expect it to be.

Megan absolutely. I think people (strangers or slight acquaintances) took a particular pleasure in telling me my life was over, my pelvic floor shredded, my ability to read novels at one sitting permanently gone because at some unconscious level they'd resented my freedom, which they saw as going on unfairly long. Some even seemed disgusted I'd conceived easily and had a straighforward pregnancy at my advanced age, because it didn't fit with their preconceived notions that, having selfishly left it so long, I should be looking at multiple rounds of IVF/surrogacy/adoption at a minimum.

Their predictions were complete nonsense, anyway, and confirmed my sense that pregnancy, birth and parenthood are entirely individual affairs, and experienced differently by everyone.

The only thing I would say is that as soon as you've delivered the placenta, pretty much, the same people will ask when you're having another child, and will then scream about how selfish and unfair you are being to make Little X be an only child, and how you must give him or her a sibling.

The whole thing was really a depressing education in how much quite a lot of people need you to make the same decisions as them so as to validate them.

That seems to me to be at the heart of some parents' unpleasant response to the child-free. They can grasp the idea of the involuntarily childless and it makes them feel lucky and envied at some level but their response to those who've ^chosen* not to have children is often dictated by a suspicion that they've 'got off scot-free' or somehow pulled a fast one on life, and need to be brought back down to earth by being told their lives are black and white, trivial and meaningless, compared to the Technicolour festival of purpose and love that is parenting.

And yes, definitely heavily gendered. DH never had complete strangers at parties asking him why he hadn't had children, and did he not want them, and was he too selfish/careerist/addicted to juvenile fun and games.

We go for days out, museums, random mystery drives, get new fish for the reef tank, randomly choose to go somewhere, sleep, go to a spa, do some gardening, fix up my car, see friends and family. beauty days, red letter days, holidays abroad, weekends to Europe. Money in the account most days lol.

And its Child Free not Child Less :D

And its Child Free not Child Less :D

Depends.

I say childfree because it's my choice and something that makes me happy, I think I'd hate being a parent. But I'd say childless about people who would like to have kids and couldn't.

I dislike children and always have and never wanted to have any. I have no interest in them at all. However, I accept that many people to want children - as long as I am not subjected to them being badly-behaved when I am out, I live and let live.

Empress - can you tell on sight whether someone is child free or childless then?

Even people who cannot have children, often prefer child free.

No one minds "childfree" . Some people mind childless, so just always better say childfree as you're much less likely to upset someone. If you care about such things.