I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

@HairHereThere certain groups

Which ones?

What famous cases of advrse reactions@bebeboeuf. Please link to some actual information rather than just obliquely referring to things.

DH will have a stem cell transplant soon to lengthen what short life he has left. I’m terrified that while he’s neutropenic he’ll catch something awful. We don’t just vaccinate for our own, we vaccinate for everyone in society. Including those who GENUINELY cannot have the vaccinations.

It's interesting how people are so wary about vaccines but will gladly have all sorts of drugs when they're in pain or discomfort from something.

What sort of balanced debate do you want OP?

''Shall we get all the kids vaccinated and keep the rate of horrible diseases down... or ... not?''

What balance is there?

My mothers generation saw some of these illnesses first hand and saw children die of them. It could be argued that the years of not seeing the effect of these horrible diseases first hand has dulled the understanding of why we need them and left us open to them flaring up again. It's really not rocket science though is it?

Maybe there just needs to be a different approach to the issue then. Perhaps I could have worded this better or had a different thread title, anyway, I just feel that the aggressive stance regarding the safety of vaccines is causing certain groups to become less likely to vaccinate and a different approach could be better ?

It's funny how you frame the argument as being pro vaccine as being aggressive, it is the people not trusting experts that need a different approach and not use outliers based on defunct study.

My eldest didn’t have her mmr till she was 10
We omitted some other vaccines but after thinking long and hard we caught up with those. My younger dc has been vaccinated fully on time
I do feel that I’m theory I was/am (partly) anti vax if that makes sense. I’ve vaccinated now but I still question it and think there could be better approaches to dealing with the current concerns

It's interesting how people are so wary about vaccines but will gladly have all sorts of drugs when they're in pain or discomfort from something.

Absolutely agree.

To actually listen to concerns and have a balanced debate rather than the media portraying anti vaxxers as totally stupid

What sort of debate do you want?

When one side is WRONG then there is no debate.

OP - Have yo ever read the leaflet in a medicine box? The side effects for something as simple as ibuprofen are terrifying and much more prevalent than any reaction to a vaccine.

I think people who do not acknowledge that there can be side effects from vaccines are underinformed (they can't even have read the pack inserts) and that posting style can piss people off.

But the risks of vaccines are slight, when compared to the risks of the disease. They are indeed very safe in all normal senses of the term. They are not 100% risk free, and I think it's unhelpful (in the reductio ad absurbum sense) to try to frame discussion in those terms.

And of course the risks of complications from the diseases are way higher, and the complications more severe.

I just feel that the aggressive stance regarding the safety of vaccines

The stance is aggressive because of herd immunity. If not enough people take the vaccine, then there is no herd immunity, so people with weak immune systems die. That’s really all there is to it. Get vaccinated, so when there is an outbreak of something, a) it can’t spread, b) people don’t die.

bebeboeuf - aluminium toxicity? Is that like water toxicity? Too much of anything will kill you. This article states that the ambient amount of aluminium in food and indeed the air we breathe is more than a vaccine dose:
www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/aluminum-in-vaccines-paper-anti-vaxxer-claims/#Citations

I grant you the tone on that article is not conciliatory. But no - aluminium toxicity is just the next step on from the ‘mercury in vaccines’ non-issue.

Yes I think that’s precisely it, address the fears rather than just dismissing it and try somehow to work through it all as all I’m hearing and seeing is two groups of people getting more and more defensive and it’s nit helping

"When one side is WRONG then there is no debate."

This kind of attitude is certainly not going to improve vaccination rates! Given how they have fallen, there definitely is a need to improve how we communicate about this topic! And it is important to listen empathetically in order to understand what is going on with the people who have not vaccinated their children, and to adjust the messaging or the tone of how things are communicated if what's happening now isn't working...

@chemenger - probably one of the cases that’s still being camapained about is Jodie Marchant.
There is the Jodie Marchant fund which has been raising money for years on it.

Many articles on the internet but it’s been censored by BBC
www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/15919651.disabled-woman-needs-funds-after-23-year-campaign-for-justice/

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1151805/NHS-blunders-spate-vaccine-overloads.html

healthimpactnews.com/tag/jodie-marchant/

@hingle - that’s what I was saying. Small amounts of aluminium are fine as the body can handle it. When someone gives vaccines incorrectly (as in too much at once) that’s when the damage occurs.

If You are making a decision, as the NHS is, for thousands of D.C. then mathematically the pros outweigh the cons.
If you are making a decision for one baby the odds change.
After 12 MCs 1 still born, I found it a horrendously difficult decision. I opted for single jabs.

There’s lots of things in vaccines you wouldn’t choose to put in your body, you do it because it has to be there to make the vaccine work.
You don’t on the other hand choose to have too much of it to harm you.
The errors are so far and few between that it’s those the anti-vaxers hear about and focus on.

The vaccines done correctly are successful so long as no adverse allergic reaction. Which is different to bring injected with too much at once

I find this odd. Every time my children have been given a new vaccination, we have to wait in the surgery for 15 minutes afterwards to check there’s no reaction and if there is, they can deal with it safely. They’re really open there’s a risk (albeit s tiny), that’s why I sign a consent form every time... as someone else said, there’s risk to eating eggs or peanuts for the first time, there’s risk to crossing the roads, responsible adults weigh up the risk (which for vaccines is significantly less than crossing the road!)

I had all of my children vaccinated. One was seriously ill after one of the vaccinations and was hospitalised in an oxygen tent. One of my other childrenhad a bad reaction and was ill for days so it does happen

I don't think most anti-vaxxers are stupid. I think it is a toxic combination of paranoid, fearful and selfish

The ven diagram between flat earthers and anti vaxers/general conspiracy is substantial..

This type of conversation is ripe for darwin awards, but, unfortunately, the belief trumps fact people often cause more damage to others, children in the case of anti-vaxxers - than themselves.

If you ignore facts, consequences can also be ignored, as bad stuff can be attributed to a different conspiracy.

I agree with you 100%.

Literally shook my head thinking seriously this week..post on FB..My child has had the MMR 4 days ago...they've since been really poorly and have now broken out in this rash (shows rash, definitely looks like measles)....but of course it's nothing to do with the MMR is it?

Actually takes child (who's clearly infectious!) to the Dr's surgery (well done, spread it around why don't you) but the best bit....apparently the dr said it was 'just a coincidence' it was after the MMR and it was just a viral rash.

Dear god. Any idiot could tell it was measles.

Listen. yes measles can kill. So can chickenpox. Jesus, so can a common cold.

Personally, I think everyone is ok with taking the risk until it's their child who's severely damaged from a vaccine....taking one for the team.

They are not safe but they are necessary. NO drug is 100% safe though.

This stuff is extremely dangerous to put in your body. And did you realise it lurks everywhere in most homes and many buildings? On bad days it can fall from the sky. BEWARE!!

Since the rate of totally preventable measles has now quadrupled I personally think the Gvt should make it illegal for children to not be vaccinated. It’s just too dangerous. And since pp will believe anything they believe online these days, I don’t think we can risk it being left to individuals choice anymore.

@chermenger I’ve just read the skepticalraptor link and it’s unfortunately full of errors.
It’s things like that that don’t help support people’s choices because the provaxxers are making up as many ‘facts’ as the anti Vaxxers do just to counter everything.

English university scientists in Keele have been researching aluminium build up (not just from vaccines but from all sorts of things) for many years.
This was mainly in the study of auzheimers and they have found that by reducing aluminium content in the body the symptoms improve.

The error in that link you post is that they state that there is no proof that aluminium causes any harm at all and doesn’t built up in the body but that goes against any actual scientific study done on it.

@destiniesdaughter - it’s alrwady happening in America. It’s compulsory in many states to be vaccinated