I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

I’m just so acutely aware at the moment with the circles I am having discussions in that there’s a huge amount t of fear and so little trust and I only started this thread because of that really.
It just feels very like it’s something that is a forbidden subject almost and trying to see both sides is not tolerated

Like I said I do have reservations but had to make the best choice for my dc and chose to vaccinate but I’ve always had a shaky few days after worrying and been very relieved when they were ok.
The dr at a and e on that occasion did really bother me as I was totally shut down and not allowed to finish speaking and that I feel is the kind of thing that can really cause problems

I think the point you make is also relevant to the pill, the side effects of which are not fully discussed, because the benefits of unwanted pregnancy are deemed outlay the disadvantages.

Every single time I open a new pill pack it has a leaflet which outlines the possible side effects in great detail. People have to take some responsibility themselves. If I get a new medicine then I read the leaflet thoroughly and check any information on the NHS website.

Some of the adult vaccines are 3 in 1. I had my hep b booster with another triple booster. No problems.

You never get anyone moaning about travel vacs do you?. Just childhood ones and flu.

The major vaccine damaged victims happen to generally (I say generally as it’s not the case for all) had vaccines administered incorrectly - too much at once. It is known that the aluminium content is poisonous in high doses an that’s what happened to the lady that’s often used as an example.

However, vaccines done correctly and to someone who isn’t allergic to one of the other ingredients (as some contain egg so if you have an egg allergy and don’t know about it you will have a reaction for example) will work.

There’s plenty of research at the moment mainly carried out by scientists at Keele university about the affect of aluminium on the brain in you and old and the relation to auzheimers and ms too.

It’s research such as this along with the link between aluminium in deodorants causing cancer that has meant we now have aluminium free deodorant on the shelves and other aluminium reduced products.

In short - we all know that poison is poison. But alcohol is poison and many of us weigh up the pros and cons and drink that occasionally.
It’s the same with vaccines. We know it’s got stuff in it that is poison, but not in big enough doses to do major harm (unless administered incorrectly) so we weigh up the pros and cons and decide to vaccinate to ensure that our children and immunocompromosed members of society are protected.

Thank you OP - you have managed to raise just how safe and life saving vaccines are.

Anti Vaxers are on the same side as flat earthers that all that is needed to be said.

If you squint hard enough and believe scientific evidence that only substantiates your preconceived outcome then its a big goverment conspiracy.

You could look at the Flat Earthers and Anti Vaxers funding independent studies that show they are talking shit or you could focus on the natural outliers syndrome and pretend there are lizard people walking among us.

Why multiple vaccines - why not?

Without any medical knowledge: Spreading them out increases the number of injections and therefore potentially the distress of the child. It also takes longer to achieve full protection for the child, since the different vaccines would be spaced out significantly (I assume).

There are lots of explanations for this online, google "why multiple vaccines". Lots of actual experts explaining things, if you choose the source carefully.

If there is no medical counterargument why should the NHS not save money?

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/combination-vaccines-and-multiple-vaccinations

There is a lot of fear about at the moment surrounding vaccines due to the handle of famous cases of sever reactions.
I’ve even met some NHS staff who are against it.
They still have to push it though.
My friend who is a GP at our local practise told me recently that the percentage of children vaccinated had dropped considerably. They are being targeted hard to increase this and there are financial incentives and rewards in doing so.
This sometimes muddies the waters a bit as anything that has a financial inventive is seen as untrustworthy in this country

I’m just so acutely aware at the moment with the circles I am having discussions in that there’s a huge amount t of fear and so little trust and I only started this thread because of that really.

BECAUSE OF FAKE. NEWS.

FAKE. FUCKING. NEWS.

Swear to God, too many lay people prove time and time and time again they cannot be trusted to make a decision fully in a child’s best interests and think they know better than all of the research and the amount of money the NHS still pumps into vaccination programmes. Vaccines should be mandatory because of this unless a child is signed out of the programme by a recognised, accredited, fucking qualified professional.

Maybe there just needs to be a different approach to the issue then. Perhaps I could have worded this better or had a different thread title, anyway, I just feel that the aggressive stance regarding the safety of vaccines is causing certain groups to become less likely to vaccinate and a different approach could be better ?
That said maybe drs are just totally losing patience after days seeing very sick children with any of these preventable diseases or having to deal with the consequences of infection with them. I do understand that. I just really feel there are other ways to address the low vaccine take up rates currently and a different more open approach could be a way forward. To actually listen to concerns and have a balanced debate rather than the media portraying anti vaxxers as totally stupid

@chemenger there is good reason not to do multiple vaccines in one as per my PP just before yours.

Look at this baby who was too young to have the vaccine

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48039524

The poor baby girl got measles and her eyes were swollen shut for 4 days and she spent 8 days in holspital.

Foslady I believe that myself which I why I have vaccinated my dc. I did have to think carefully about it first though and I won’t lie it was a hard decision but I think it was the right decision
Even admitting I questioned it though I felt suddenly very very pressurised by the gp and it was almost hostile immediately that I said I wasn’t sure whereas had he spoken differently to me it would have been much better all round
As it happens I went ahead anyway but I know so many who haven’t done who never would have anyway and others who like me weren’t sure but had similarly hostile reactions and they walked out and didn’t vaccinate

Sorry @bebeboeuf, I don't see what you are referring to.

slashlover Exactly. The side effects of the pill are well studied and easily available on the NHS website. Your nurse practitioner or pharmacist could discuss them with you in detail as well. There is no attempt to hide the possible side effects.

The nhs give the information , they can not force people to trust them
It’s not a forbidden subject, and you can’t blame people for getting a little frustrated at people who are determined to be blind or governed by their emotions instead of the truth. doubting a medical professionals advice is pretty insulting. Suspect that is behind some of the “forbidden subject” conversations

Everything has risk
You breathe - whatever is in the air goes in your lungs
You go outside - there are (for example) wasps - you may get stung

No one can definitively say that any specific vaccine doesn't carry a specific risk to a specific person. What they can definitively say is that the risk of vaccination is far far far less than the risk of the -child- person getting the disease.

Crossing the road - any road - has a risk.

Once upon a time - the fear was that disease was due to lack of religious belief and that (usually women) those who said hand washing prevented spread of disease were (evil) witches.

Grow up - realise that actions have consequences and that, generally, refusing vaccine has worse consequences than getting vaccinated

The major vaccine damaged victims happen to generally (I say generally as it’s not the case for all) had vaccines administered incorrectly - too much at once. It is known that the aluminium content is poisonous in high doses an that’s what happened to the lady that’s often used as an example.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/vaccine-ingredients/

Thiomersal (mercury) in vaccines
Thiomersal is no longer used in any of the vaccines routinely given to babies and young children in the NHS childhood immunisation programme.
It's also no longer used in any of the vaccines routinely given to adults in the UK.
Thiomersal is a preservative that contains small amounts of mercury. It's used to prevent the growth of bacteria or fungi in the vaccine.
Although there have been concerns in the past that vaccines that contain thiomersal can cause autism, there's no scientific evidence that this is the case.
The World Health Organization (WHO) has stated there's no risk from thiomersal in vaccines.

I completely agree with this post.

I totally believe in vaccination but even I find the whole spiel from the health system incredibly off-putting. I've also seen posters from Public Health England talking about how your children "must get" certain vaccinations. It's coercive and I don't believe that truly informed consent can be given without some kind of acceptance that there are some (very very minimal, but real) risks -- for example the tiny but present risk of developng Guillain-Barre syndrome from swine flu vaccine, etc. To deny that there are any risks at all is disingenuous. It also makes people who are prone to believing conspiracy theories, or simply those who are ill-informed, more suspicious. It would be better to be clear about the risks and transparent about how minimal they are (eg for the risk I mentioned above it is 1 in a million!).

marns

Not at all! I carried on with the schedule after that. I just felt I asked a reasonable question I had asked was the rash a side effect of a vaccination or could it be an allergy from food. I got shot down immediately about the vaccination query. Im fact we never found out what caused it ! Huge hives/rash that started an hour after the vaccination at the site then spread so of course I was going to think it could be that but we won’t ever know it was apparently an unknown reaction
Subsequent tests didn’t reveal any food allergies
It was just the way I was spoken to lie I was an idiot for even considering it despite where it started etc

To actually listen to concerns and have a balanced debate rather than the media portraying anti vaxxers as totally stupid

But just doing that then risks validating completely off the wall, wrong and dangerous viewpoints.

Anti-vaxxers may or may not be stupid but they’re doing a damn stupid thing.

I don't think most anti-vaxxers are stupid. I think it is a toxic combination of paranoid, fearful and selfish.

You researched and decided benefit outweighed risk so vaccinated your children. In what possible sense are you anti vax?

Ultimately this is a very helpful conversation to be having because it addreses some of the actual fears of anti-vaxxers, rather than just calling them loons (which further alienates them and doesn't solve the problem).