I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

Which is different to bring injected with too much at once

Could you point me to the website that you’re citing that from?

For anyone interested in the scientific research done by Keele university here is the start of it - www.keele.ac.uk/aluminium/research/humanexposuretoal/

There are many other papers going into more detail if you actually want to see the findings

@hingle - see my PP.
Theres lots about it

More detailed infomation here too www.keele.ac.uk/aluminium/pressreleases/

This kind of attitude is certainly not going to improve vaccination rates! Given how they have fallen, there definitely is a need to improve how we communicate about this topic! And it is important to listen empathetically in order to understand what is going on with the people who have not vaccinated their children, and to adjust the messaging or the tone of how things are communicated if what's happening now isn't working...

Well we could implement a big chinese firewall and dictate to what people can see online, we could also start targeting religious minorities with targeting advertising and fase the backlash, or we could implement rules to exclude un vaccinated children from schools, it seems as though you want government intervention but with a get out clause for those that don't want to participate.

This kind of attitude is certainly not going to improve vaccination rates! Given how they have fallen, there definitely is a need to improve how we communicate about this topic! And it is important to listen empathetically in order to understand what is going on with the people who have not vaccinated their children, and to adjust the messaging or the tone of how things are communicated if what's happening now isn't working...

Well we could implement a big chinese firewall and dictate to what people can see online, we could also start targeting religious minorities with targeting advertising and fase the backlash, or we could implement rules to exclude un vaccinated children from schools, it seems as though you want government intervention but with a get out clause for those that don't want to participate.

Personally, I think everyone is ok with taking the risk until it's their child who's severely damaged from a vaccine....taking one for the team
How does that make any sense.

Very very rarely, people die from taking an antibiotic. We don't get people claiming to be 'anti-antibiotic' and claiming there's some secret conspiracy. They accept that like with any drug there are the very very small minority who may get a serious adverse effect. It's the same with vaccines. Except because they're preventative instead of curative, so no instant life saving action, people have the luxury of being able to umm and arr and basically disregard how important they are to health.

A) my name is chemenger and B) I didn't post the link you looked at, I posted one from the university of oxford.

I’m fascinated by the reasearch due to family history of MS and auzheimers and have known scientist at Keele.
They’ve been researching it since about 2006 in the aim of finding things to reduce aluminium content in the body if it’s too high.

But surely the aluminium accumulates from environmental exposures much more significantly than from vaccinations?

Yes, as with all medical treatment I believe that bodily autonomy and consent (in this case the parent's on behalf of their children) are important.

The public health messaging and support around breastfeeding here in the UK is equally dire OK, actually MORE dire and I believe that breastfeeding has many health benefits but I would never suggest that formula be banned or its sale restricted, for example.

But yes, we should be targeting communications better and really understanding why people aren't vaccinating and addressing it better than we are now!

Apologies for adding an extra ‘r’ that last time Chemenger.

And yes that skeptical link wasn’t you

I think Tony Blair caused a great deal of damage to the vaccination rate back when the MMR was bring questioned and he refused to say whether his own child had been given it or had the single jabs. He made people doubt all the reassurance that doctors were trying to give - a lot of parents felt that if MMR was truly safe then why wouldn't the prime minister say whether his own baby had it.
I think there is a large hangover from that, along with the growing public view that experts cannot be trusted, that politicians in particular are not truthful and are solely self serving.
I'm pro vaccination - I think that the risk of adverse reaction is much less than the risk of injury from one of these diseases. But I do agree with the OP in that you cannot just tell people to do something and expect them to automatically trust and never question. If you shut down any questions then you create mistrust, which damages vaccination rates.

justanotherlurker See, I get the motivation for being antivax. It is fear, pure and simple, of giving my healthy child a medication that s/he does not need right now to resolve a problem. So I can refuse. And I can find all kinds of nonsense to back up my fear. And if I give into my fear, my dc MIGHT still be ok because they may never contract the illness. Maybe enough other people will risk their own dc and mine will be ok...

Flat earthers... that is a really different motivation.

Same paranoia, but different drivers.

I find conspiracy theorists and fact deniers fascinating!

Yes aluminium can build up from all sorts of things. The food we eat etc.

But the subject of this thread related to vaccines and the point I was trying to make in a rather long winded way was that there have been some utter catastrophies with badly administered vaccines where the damage is from aluminium posioning.
This is unfortunately what anti vaxxers focus on and not that vaccines ina n every day sense done correctly work and do not generally cause harm

Moon landings on the other hand ....

and I believe that breastfeeding has many health benefits but I would never suggest that formula be banned or its sale restricted, for example.

I don't understand your logic. Not vaccinating can kill other immunosuppressed people, formula doesn't.

The fact that you don't seem to be aware that there is already lots of research out there about vaccines is fairly worrying. What are your sources of info at the moment? Everything has risk, on balance the risk of injury from a vaccine is less than the risk of damage from the infections they protect against.

Do be wary of the presentation of statistics. The rate has risen in the last two years, but it is still way lower than it was around 2011/12.

It is however concerning that it is rising, because there is the potential for a local outbreak - (no more than a dozen cases, the sort of event that happens frequently enough not to be newsworthy - check the NOIDS reports as stats are published) - could tip into a much bigger one if there are a couple of infected people near a group of vulnerable ones.

There is a whole generation where uptake was very low (young adults, maybe age around 18-20, who missed the jabs in the period between The Lancet publishing and the further research which discredited it, compounded by the appalling decision to let the license for the older and non-controversial NHS measles jabs to lapse at exactly that time). Plus there was a very high rate of immigration, and it's not terribly clear if immunisation status of arrivals was ever checked. Then there's the WHO report about the anti-vax trolls, and their estimates on the impact of take-up of jabs. So a fair number of holes if you look at this is the Swiss cheese way.

So presenting the stats in the scariest way is probably being done with the motive of highlighting the current estimates of risk level, whilst there is still time to do something about it.

Remember the queues for jabs during the Wales outbreak?

Many thanks! Interesting stuff from Keele. Although it’s all written by someone called Chris Exley. Who, it seems, is about as to be trusted on vaccines as Andrew Wakefield. He seems to be ploughing a lonely furrow.

Apologies for the paywall, but this is our man Chris:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/funding-halted-for-professor-chris-exley-linking-vaccines-to-autism-8xvwp0g8p?wgu=270525_73669_15562293831123_f2661c30e0&wgexpiry=1564005383&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=30828

It’s not a great sign is it?

I just think that whist you can be acutely aware at the moment with the circles I am having discussions in that there’s a huge amount t of fear and so little trust

You need also to be aware you may be amidst underinformed but highly motivational speakers who can easily influence you.

Your op said antinvaxx had a point and “ If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest “

Would anybody rather their child/loved one die of preventable diseases?

The info is out there

publichealthengland.exposure.co/childhood-vaccination

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/benefits-and-risks/

Would you want to be mum to the 7 month old at risk because other failed to vaccinate?

www.itv.com/news/granada/2018-01-18/measles-outbreak-mother-urges-people-to-get-their-children-vaccinated/

The dr at a and e on that occasion did really bother me as I was totally shut down and not allowed to finish speaking and that I feel is the kind of thing that can really cause problems

The Dr quite possible shut you down because they were a highly trained A&E dr and your turned up with perfectly normal vaccination side effects and took that dr away from dealing with actual accidents and emergencies and they could see your child was fine -assuming there is no drip feed here that the A&E dr gave mis information and child ended up in HD unit for several weeks?- I am not diminishing your worries as a parent, we all have worries! Just explaining why - although you have bad feelings for the A &E dr, they may have been trying to quickly be quashing your worries which, I assume were unfounded, because they had urgent cases they needed to attend to?
I just felt I asked a reasonable question I had asked was the rash a side effect of a vaccination or could it be an allergy from food. I got shot down immediately about the vaccination query. Im fact we never found out what caused it ! Huge hives/rash that started an hour after the vaccination at the site then spread so of course I was going to think it could be that but we won’t ever know it was apparently an unknown reaction
A reaction at any injection site Is normal and the spread...how far? If the A&E dr felt it was normal then maybe it doesn’t actually warrant a discussion.

I don’t agree that Professor Chris Exeley is like Andrew Wakefield at all.
He is highly respected in his field and head of chemistry at Keele. Has won awards and is not anti vaccination. His reports and findings are not focused on vaccinations but touch on it due to the link

There are some interesting posts about the risks of adjuvants, including links to peer-reviewed research papers) in this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/vaccinations/a3145738-why-would-you-not-vaccinate#75536378

But worth noting that the poster who was posting authoritatively about current research on this, also pointed out that the risks of the diseases were considerably higher and she still recommends immunisation

I’ve only heard of him in relation to Auzheimers and MS research and quite shocked to see that times article saying he is anti vax.

Keele university wouldn’t want to have someone like that as leader of department at all.