Bloody Sunday prosecution

[Somerville]

Only one man will be prosecuted for murdering civilians at the Bloody Sunday civil rights march.

The long-delayed inquiry found that all the killings were unjustified, that every adult and child who was killed had been unarmed, and that no warnings were gven before soldiers opened fire.

British justice at it's finest, eh?

Rules of engagement are clear ( although in some situations difficult to compute in the heat of battle - not Bloody Sunday..). I agree, what culpability is there for the chain of command?

Although this was not a war - bear with me for saying this in this way: there is such a thing as war crimes. If someone has committed a criminal act within a conflict situation, then evidence should be gathered and they should be charged and subjected to trial through rule of law - a basic British value. Just because it was 1972 doesn't mean we should go 'ah well then, it was nearly 50 years ago, let's leave it'.

The attitude of "oh it was nearly 50 years ago" is sickening.

Do people honestly believe that families can just move on without the truth?
Or that they should?

These weren't soldiers, they weren't terrorists, they weren't an army.

They were civilians, who had already been battered, bruised and beaten down by the UK government for no other reason than their faith and political allegiance.

They were protesting the injustices inflicted upon them.

Would it be ok for the army to open fire on a Brexit March? Or the anti Iraq war marches? Or Scottish independence marches?

Because it's the same thing, only in black and white photos.

But to those who lived through it and lost loved ones, they're not black and white photos are they? They're reality.

The point about the time past relates to the possibility of a fair trial and/or the prospects of a jury finding the case proven beyond reasonable doubt.

I take it you also want the people who bombed those pubs in Birmingham and Guildford also put on trial?

I take it you also want the people who bombed those pubs in Birmingham and Guildford also put on trial?

If you mean the ones who actually did it and not the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6 yes, I do.

I'd also like Liam Kelly, who tortured and murdered Cpt Robert Nairac in 1977 to be tried.

The ones who actually did it would be nice, yes.

And the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad could join them.

So long as the evidence was there to convict beyond reasonable doubt.

If the comfort letters issued in 1998 as part of the Good Friday agreement were rescinded as was put forward in 2014, then protection from prosecution is invalid should new evidence emerge or a reassessment of existing evidence leads the PSNI and prosecuting authorities to a different conclusion from their original one.

Therefore if there is compelling evidence to charge a suspect of crimes then yes, they should be charged no matter what side they were on. This assumes that the people involved did get a comfort letter.

I will say that while I agree the families of the victims of IRA bombings/attacks absolutely deserve justice, it is only right to recognise that Irish Catholics lived with oppression, aggression and horrendous conditions for many, many years.

Their daily lives were affected by the British army, the B specials and the RUC along with government, and they were treated appallingly.

10IAR - yes. I agree. They were treated like a sub class.

It should also be noted that more Catholic civillians were murdered by Republican paramilitaries than by all other forces, Loyalists and Crown Forces, combined.

I think we’re still treated like a sub-class by some English people, sadly. But there is a lot more knowledge and understanding Olof our plight than there used to be... including on this thread.

MillytantForceit civilians, not Catholic civilians. It includes their bombs in England too.

Somerville I'm not English, but I've never thought of you as a sub class for what it's worth.

Of the civilian casualties, 48% were killed by loyalists, 39% were killed by republicans, and 10% were killed by the British security forces.[207] Most of the Catholic civilians were killed by loyalists, and most of the Protestant civilians were killed by republicans.

This would seem to contradict you Millytantforceit. It's from Wikipedia, but the numbers beside it denote the source.

It should also be noted that more Catholic civillians were murdered by Republican paramilitaries than by all other forces, Loyalists and Crown Forces, combined.

No, this is completely wrong. Loyalist paramilitaries murdered roughly twice as many Catholic civilians as the IRA/INLA, even setting aside RUC and British Army killings.

X post. The Sutton Death Index makes this clear as well.

LadyGregorysToothbrush yes! That was one of the sources of the post I put up.

I think it's easy to make the IRA the bogeyman because UK media makes it so. But let's be honest, none of the armed combatants come out of it covered in any kind of glory.

As usual it was civilians who paid the price.

I believe a joint inquiry covering this and ballymurphy would be useful as as far as I’m aware the same soldiers were involved.

The British government were agitating for a civil war to start. The tactics they used to push violence on both sides was absolutely shocking. This was a part of the U.K. patrolled by British soldiers who ‘accidentally’ shot many people, including lots of children. Although, most of the British public seem blithely unaware of this.

I wonder if those saying it was long ago realise it is because successive British government have obstructed justice.

I remember the 'normal' army on the streets and I remember some of the soldiers looked like scared kids.

The paras on the other hand had a reputation (and I'm from a loyalist background) as trigger happy murderers.

History will judge them even if the families don't get truth or justice.

Prosecuting one out of 17 soldiers just looks like scapegoating to me. As a PP mentioned, the officers are facing no action.

As far as I've read it was the same soldiers, it was certainly the same section sent deliberately because they had a reputation for over the top aggression. They were known as the pet attack dogs of one of the top brass.

Interesting that one of their number was promoted to General isn't it?

And I couldn't agree more about successive governments covering it all up.

'I think it's easy to make the IRA the bogeyman because UK media makes it so'

Very true. Much of the British public would be unaware that paramilitary groups existed other than the IRA.

10IAR Thu 14-Mar-19 16:26:11

Point taken.

Should be said that quite a few Republican paramilitaries were also killed by their own comrades.

And the distinctions between Loyalists and the Crown were not always clear-cut.

It was a mess. A Truth and Reconcilliation process would have helped, but when McGuinness, a man I quite admire in some ways, gave evidence to Saville and couldn't remember if he'd ever been in the IRA, it did not inspire confidence.

We were at war and British soldiers acted accordingly

From wikipedia
The casualties are listed in the order in which they were killed.

John 'Jackie' Duddy, age 17. Shot as he ran away from soldiers in the car park of Rossville Flats.The bullet struck him in the shoulder and entered his chest. Three witnesses said they saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran.He was the first fatality on Bloody Sunday. Like Saville, Widgery also concluded that Duddy was unarmed.
Michael Kelly, age 17. Shot in the stomach while standing at the rubble barricade on Rossville Street. Both Saville and Widgery concluded that Kelly was unarmed.
Hugh Gilmour, age 17. Shot as he ran away from soldiers near the rubble barricade.The bullet went through his left elbow and entered his chest. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit[ corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative.
William Nash, age 19. Shot in the chest at the rubble barricade. Witnesses stated Nash was unarmed. Three people were shot while apparently going to his aid, including his father Alexander Nash.
John Young, age 17. Shot in the face at the rubble barricade, apparently while crouching and going to the aid of William Nash. Two witnesses stated Young was unarmed.
Michael McDaid, age 20. Shot in the face at the rubble barricade, apparently while crouching and going to the aid of William Nash.
Kevin McElhinney, age 17. Shot from behind, near the rubble barricade, while attempting to crawl to safety. Two witnesses stated McElhinney was unarmed
James 'Jim' Wray, age 22. Shot in the back while running away from soldiers in Glenfada Park courtyard. He was then shot again in the back as he lay mortally wounded on the ground. Witnesses, who were not called to the Widgery Tribunal, stated that Wray was calling out that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time.
William McKinney, age 27. Shot in the back as he attempted to flee through Glenfada Park courtyard.
Gerard McKinney, age 35. Shot in the chest at Abbey Park. A soldier ran through an alleyway from Glenfada Park and shot him from a few yards away. Witnesses said that when he saw the soldier, McKinney stopped and held up his arms, shouting "Don't shoot! Don't shoot!", before being shot. The bullet apparently went through his body and struck Gerard Donaghy behind him.
Gerard Donaghy, age 17. Shot in the stomach at Abbey Park while standing behind Gerard McKinney. Both were apparently struck by the same bullet.

Patrick Doherty, age 31. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville Flats. He was shot by soldiers who came out of Glenfada Park. Doherty was photographed, moments before and after he died, by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from "Soldier F" that he had shot a man holding a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs show Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative.
Bernard 'Barney' McGuigan, age 41. Shot in the head when he walked out from cover to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief to indicate his peaceful intentions.
John Johnston, age 59. Shot in the leg and left shoulder on William Street 15 minutes before the rest of the shooting started.Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park.He died on 16 June 1972; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot.

It’s sickening that many British soldiers have got away with that. Ballymurphy is equally shocking, nothing short of a state sanctioned killing spree.

If British soldiers acted inappropriately and illegally of course they should face consequences as should those who issued orders. Is this happening now or is a low ranking soldier being thrown under the bus. What about the murdering IRA members who have been let of their disgusting acts.

As someone who remembers the conflict I’m really pissed off with the minimising of the atrocities on this thread. I was in Manchester the day before the cowardly attack. An Irish school friend did 3 tours in Ireland and was horrified at the violence of his fellow Irishmen. What about the 2 soldiers beaten to death when out buying a pizza. Nah they don’t matter.