Bloody Sunday prosecution

[Somerville]

Only one man will be prosecuted for murdering civilians at the Bloody Sunday civil rights march.

The long-delayed inquiry found that all the killings were unjustified, that every adult and child who was killed had been unarmed, and that no warnings were gven before soldiers opened fire.

British justice at it's finest, eh?

I agree with you there weetabix, it just seemed to descend into tit for tat killings that went on for decades. And the vast majority of people did not support that. It was a cycle of constant retaliation. But it should be remembered that it was both sets of paramilitaries targeting innocent people on the other side of the divide. Both republican and loyalist paramilitaries should be condemned.

What would have helped is more responsible actions from the British government. They supported the loyalists and did nothing to protect the nationalists. Both communities should have been able to trust the police and the army but that didn't happen.

I've been lurking around this post for a while, weighing up whether or not to contribute. So many of you have balanced views, but there is a lot of criticism of certain aspects of the GFA which I feel need some context. Apologies in advance if I am de-railing the thread, but I feel that this needs to be said.

I am Northern Irish, from Belfast, and have lived there my whole life. I was 7 years old when my family went out to vote "yes" in the GFA referendum.
As someone stated up thread, there have probably been thousands of lives saved by the GFA in the 20yrs since it has been signed. I was lucky to have a fairly normal childhood because of the GFA.

My parents can't really say the same.
My dad was shot at by Loyalists when he was a teenager because he had the audacity to have Protestant friends who he was "tainting" with his "dirty fenian ways".
As a child, my mother used to have to lay in bed at night fully dressed, and ready to run for safety because her home was being bombed, or shot at, or set on fire. My mother is into her 50s now, and she still can't talk about some of the things she witnessed growing up as a Catholic teenager in Belfast.
My great-aunt died in a bomb, planted by the IRA to kill British soldiers. It detonated prematurely, and she died. She had only gone to the shop to get some milk.

People knew the terms of the GFA when they went out to vote. Every household was sent a copy of it. I can still remember it sitting on my grandmother's dining room table. They knew that people who had killed their parents, their spouse, their sibling, would be released under its terms. And yet, an overwhelming majority of people, many of whom had lived through the absolute carnage of The Troubles, votes "yes". Because many of those children and teenagers, Catholics and Protestants, were now parents themselves. And they wanted a better life for their children, for their children to not have to suffer what they had endured.

You absolutely cannot compare those who were released under the terms of the GFA with the absolute whitewash that was Widgery, the subsequent findings of the Saville Inquiry and apology by David Cameron, for the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday. This was a systematic attempt at a cover up by the highest in our society. The people who were released under the GFA had been in jail and were serving their time for their crimes - those involved in Bloody Sunday were not, and have not. And that is the fundamental difference.

Both republican and loyalist paramilitaries should be condemned.

Of course they should. And anyone else found guilty should also be condemned.

I would hope that no one felt able to justify the murder of any innocent person. Sadly those that do seem to have an interest in keeping the conflict alive.

Great post, OohToBeAah.

I think what people from elsewhere fail to understand is that the paramilitary attacks from violent men at the extremes of both sides negatively impacted on everyone else.

Excellent post OohToBeAah. Not derailing the thread at all, I think you've summed it up perfectly and you have far more insight into the situation than most of us here.

The people who were released under the GFA had been in jail and were serving their time for their crimes

I understand that people directly involved were able to vote on the GFA and I can understand their willingness to agree to it for the sake of peace. Were the families of victims in England consulted on it? I would imagine that to be a very hard thing to come to terms with - that the person responsible for the death of your loved one has been released. Do you think they feel justice was served?

I really don't support prosecution of soldiers in this way

Not prosecuting doesn't just let these soldiers away with it. It's saying that as a society we are ok with the Army shooting unarmed civilians on the street. There is no deterrent for soldiers in the future if they can shoot innocent children from their own country and retain their freedom and their jobs. Surely we can all agree that is not ok?

No, Weetabix.

People in England, or Scotland, or Wales, did not get an opportunity to be consulted on the terms of the GFA because its aim was to bring peace to Northern Ireland. A place which, by this stage, had suffered almost daily carnage and death for almost 30 years.

Without meaning to offend, or to minimise the suffering of those who were affected by the campaign of violence in England, the GFA was never about England. It was about our home, and our people, who had all suffered enough and wanted to ensure a better life. For all of us.

But I have no doubt that it would have been very difficult for people in England to come to terms with, and maybe they don't feel that justice has been served. It was the same here, and I'm sure there are some who still feel it a too high price. Having the luxury of growing up in the kind of Northern Ireland I did, I feel it was worth it, but I appreciate that you, and others, may not agree and I do understand why.

To be clear, I don't think the general population should have been consulted. It's just that I can understand why people being affected daily might choose to vote for a treaty that brings peace even if they themselves have to sacrifice.

I think it must be incredibly hard for the survivors elsewhere though to live with.

Weetabix. So you're opposed to a long negotiated agreement for truce. You're shit stirring.

Why is a murderous bastard facing charges of murder 'incredibly hard' for anyone?

AnyWalls

What are you talking about? I am talking about how individual families felt. That is not saying that I don't support the truce.

And honestly, I really don't want to talk to someone who openly says that they support the IRA so no point @ing me or speaking to me, I won't respond.

I think this outcome is the one that will satisfy the fewest number of people, and offer no closure. The sole ex-soldier to be charged will feel singled out, no-one in overall command is to be charged, and the relatives of those who died probably feel no justice has been served.

AnyWalls

weetabix is engaging with the discussion and asking questions. I haven't agreed with a lot of what they've posted, but let's be fair. And I'm sure it is hard for the families of the English victims, it's a fair point. OohAhh gave a good response above.

Derailing the thread and insulting people is not going to convince people to see your point of view.

That may be hard, Weetabix. I am sure it is for some, but I would counter that it's much harder for a sister to see the man convicted of killing her sister down the local shop, or in the pub.

You have to remember that the people who committed these acts were often part of the same community of the people they killed, and so were released back into those communities after jail. They were able to marry, have families, etc. - things that were robbed of so many people, on both sides of the community.

And I also echo the point made by Sakura7. Let's stick to engaging in balanced discussion regarding these issues, not insulting people because of a different point of view, or a lack of understanding. It's such an important dialogue that needs to continue if the ghosts of our past are to ever be truly laid to rest in Northern Ireland.

Weetabix

someone who openly says that they support the IRA

If you keep saying it, it might come true is it?

Ooh that was an excellent post, however it is very telling that *Weet is still carrying on in the same vein. It’s not about having a different point of view, it’s about endlessly derailing. Weet has form for doing this all over MN, I find it actually deeply revolting that she’s doing it on a thread like this.

OohToBeAah

Great posts

Ah.

Well, you are right Willow. I didn't think that anyone would get on like that on a thread like this either. That's a pity.

I didn't know that either willow. Shame it seems so hard to have a civilised discussion about something so important.

Aye I've seen it too. It's extremely poor taste to do it on a thread like this though.

Oh my goodness. This article really struck a chord with me:

We use the English language differently to the people who gave it to us. We are not natural speakers. Where they say "Indebted. Courage. Distinction," we say "Fourteen innocent, unarmed civilians gunned down." It seems we still cannot understand one another, despite so many centuries of lessons at their hand.

Immunity for shooting innocent, unarmed, fleeing civilians. Six of them children. That is what the British government stands for, David Cameron's 2010 apology be damned. An apology not worth mentioning given the position they assumed today.... The decision of the Public Prosecution Service, and Williamson's comments, follow those of Karen Bradley (Northern Ireland Secretary), who last week said that killings committed by British armed forces during The Troubles were soldiers "fulfilling their duties in a dignified and appropriate way."

Dignified. Appropriate. Barney McGuigan shot in the head while waving a white flag, attending to Patrick Doherty. We don't speak it the same.

www.joe.ie/news/brexit-bloody-sunday-brady-ham-2-661945

Somerville, that is a stupid article. Then again, Joe.ie is hardly prize-winning journalism.
And we were not given English language by some generous benefactor. Our own language was shot and beaten out of us.

I don’t find it stupid. It expresses a set of emotions that whilst I don’t exactly share, I can understand. And I can see that it reflects exactly the emotions of a cousin of mine who shared it in FB.
I live in south east England at present and even a lot of the people who generally get it around me here are talking about Bloody Sunday with the same language but a completely different set of words than my family and the friends I grew up with. And they can’t understand quite why Bradley and Williamson were so fucking offensive because apparently “thats the kind of thing politicians have to say - don’t take it to heart”
(Where does it say the English language was bestowed on us? Irish was stolen from us, of course it was. Nevertheless it remains that we use the language of the invaders differently to how the English do, leading to the irony of the mastery of it of many of our writers.)