Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Bloody Sunday prosecution

311 replies

Somerville · 14/03/2019 11:57

Only one man will be prosecuted for murdering civilians at the Bloody Sunday civil rights march.

The long-delayed inquiry found that all the killings were unjustified, that every adult and child who was killed had been unarmed, and that no warnings were gven before soldiers opened fire.

British justice at it's finest, eh?

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:12

But that's exactly what you're saying on this thread. That this soldier should not be brought to justice because of the GFA amnesties.
Has anyone said that? Apologies if I have missed it but all that I've seen is people saying their guilt should be established in court. That's not the same as saying don't bring them to justice is it?

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:14

BeGoodTanya

Yes, which would be fine if I'd been talking about the '93 bomb.

Who has been found guilty for the 1983 Harrods bomb?

Somerville · 15/03/2019 14:14

That poem is beautiful and harrowing, OP.

Staggeringly, it wasn’t published for many years. Heaney unearthed it and it was published by the Derry Journal on the 25th anniversary of Bloody Sunday. I think I prefer it even to Casualty (Heaney’s more famous Bloody Sunday poem).

OP posts:
Sunonthepatio · 15/03/2019 14:16

The really shocking thing about all these "inquiries " and prosecutions is how many decades they seem to take.

It is obvious to most of us that the endless lengthy delays are unnecessary and aimed at obstructing justice. I see that a year might be necessary to gather evidence, but I don't believe more than that is.

RockyFlintstone · 15/03/2019 14:17

Yes, which would be fine if I'd been talking about the '93 bomb.

Who has been found guilty for the 1983 Harrods bomb?

So it was the 1983 bomb that you are saying you were caught up in?

Somerville · 15/03/2019 14:17

Casualty

I

He would drink by himself

And raise a weathered thumb

Towards the high shelf,

Calling another rum

And blackcurrant, without

Having to raise his voice,

Or order a quick stout

By a lifting of the eyes

And a discreet dumb-show

Of pulling off the top;

At closing time would go

In waders and peaked cap

Into the showery dark,

A dole-kept breadwinner

But a natural for work.

I loved his whole manner,

Sure-footed but too sly,

His deadpan sidling tact,

His fisherman’s quick eye

And turned observant back.

Incomprehensible

To him, my other life.

Sometimes, on the high stool,

Too busy with his knife

At a tobacco plug

And not meeting my eye,

In the pause after a slug

He mentioned poetry.

We would be on our own

And, always politic

And shy of condescension,

I would manage by some trick

To switch the talk to eels

Or lore of the horse and cart

Or the Provisionals.

But my tentative art

His turned back watches too:

He was blown to bits

Out drinking in a curfew

Others obeyed, three nights

After they shot dead

The thirteen men in Derry.

PARAS THIRTEEN, the walls said,

BOGSIDE NIL. That Wednesday

Everyone held

His breath and trembled.

               II   

It was a day of cold

Raw silence, wind-blown

surplice and soutane:

Rained-on, flower-laden

Coffin after coffin

Seemed to float from the door

Of the packed cathedral

Like blossoms on slow water.

The common funeral

Unrolled its swaddling band,

Lapping, tightening

Till we were braced and bound

Like brothers in a ring.

But he would not be held

At home by his own crowd

Whatever threats were phoned,

Whatever black flags waved.

I see him as he turned

In that bombed offending place,

Remorse fused with terror

In his still knowable face,

His cornered outfaced stare

Blinding in the flash.

He had gone miles away

For he drank like a fish

Nightly, naturally

Swimming towards the lure

Of warm lit-up places,

The blurred mesh and murmur

Drifting among glasses

In the gregarious smoke.

How culpable was he

That last night when he broke

Our tribe’s complicity?

‘Now, you’re supposed to be

An educated man,’

I hear him say. ‘Puzzle me

The right answer to that one.’

               III   

I missed his funeral,

Those quiet walkers

And sideways talkers

Shoaling out of his lane

To the respectable

Purring of the hearse...

They move in equal pace

With the habitual

Slow consolation

Of a dawdling engine,

The line lifted, hand

Over fist, cold sunshine

On the water, the land

Banked under fog: that morning

I was taken in his boat,

The Screw purling, turning

Indolent fathoms white,

I tasted freedom with him.

To get out early, haul

Steadily off the bottom,

Dispraise the catch, and smile

As you find a rhythm

Working you, slow mile by mile,

Into your proper haunt

Somewhere, well out, beyond...

Dawn-sniffing revenant,

Plodder through midnight rain,

Question me again.

Séamus Heaney

OP posts:
Sakura7 · 15/03/2019 14:18

Weetabix I don't think anyone was happy about it, but something had to be done to stop the violence. Given that there were both victims and perpetrators in both communities, it seemed fair in a way. The GFA has saved hundreds, if not thousands, of lives, so its undoubtedly worth it.

I don't believe Bloody Sunday can be considered in the same way though. It's different because the perpetrators were the army, not terrorists, and they should be held to a higher standard. Also, the victims had their names dragged through the mud and the truth covered up for decades.

There was a betrayal here, with the forces sent to protect innocent people turning their fire on them. It's an extra layer of betrayal.

Somerville · 15/03/2019 14:19

The really shocking thing about all these "inquiries " and prosecutions is how many decades they seem to take.

Exactly. And it’s now nine years since the inquiry ended. It’s ridiculous.

OP posts:
Imissgmichael · 15/03/2019 14:19

No Sakura I haven’t said the soldiers shouldn’t be brought to justice because of the amnesties. I’m saying that everyone who murdered or injured people during the troubles, regardless of their affiliations, should be accountable for their actions because otherwise justice isn’t served. Or do you disagree?

BeGoodTanya · 15/03/2019 14:19

You didn't specify, Weetabix, and you didn't seem to object to things further up the thread (such as references to the conviction of two men) which made it clear that other posters were discussing the 1993 bomb.
No one here is psychic.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:21

RockyFlintstone

Yes. I'm 50 and was 13 at the time. We'd gone up there for the day to go to a show at the Palladium and were sightseeing beforehand.

From memory I think people were suspects but not prosecuted, but I was a young teen so didn't follow it closely.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:23

BeGoodTanya
I realise. I think we were talking at cross purposes. I vaguely remember suspects being identified but I think it was all caught up in the GFA.

RockyFlintstone · 15/03/2019 14:23

If it was the 1983 bomb you were caught up in Weetabix then how come when someone wrote

Two men were convicted of the Harrods bomb. Funny, I’d have thought that you’d know that, seeing as you were caught up in it and feel so strongly about it.

You replied with

Yes I know? And your point is (other than disbelieving me obviously).

The bomb was planted by the IRA - why is it so wrong of me to want everyone involved to face justice and to serve their full sentence? The 2 men who planted the bomb aren't the only 2 involved in the planning, planting, building, funding of it are they?

Have you just bullshitted about being caught up in a terrorist bombing?!!! Shock

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:26

which made it clear that other posters were discussing the 1993 bomb.

I've just googled it - I had no memory of the '93 bombing. When the 2 were mentioned I assumed that my memory of no one being tried was wrong.

Somerville · 15/03/2019 14:27

I also hope that the soldiers or MOD staff who decided to get rid of the evidence just before the inquiry started are prosecuted.

The army began to destroy rifles used on Bloody Sunday just three days before Tony Blair announced a fresh inquiry, it emerged last night.
Families of the 14 victims said the revelation indicated that senior figures in the military were intent on frustrating the work of Lord Saville of Newdigate's forthcoming inquiry. It begins to take oral evidence in Londonderry's Guildhall on March 27... The army went on to destroy 14 of the 29 rifles. Ten were sold to private companies. It also destroyed two of the remaining five rifles three months after Lord Saville had decreed they should be kept safely for his tribunal.

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:31

RockyFlintstone

I've just answered that. I had a recollection of suspects being identified. Vaguely, I thought that no convictions had been brought but when the PP said 2 men were convicted I assumed that I was wrong. I knew that there were lots of questions around it hence my saying that I didn't think everyone had been brought to justice and then someone saying my answer read like I didn't believe they had been caught (which I didn't, but assumed I was wrong).

Sakura7 · 15/03/2019 14:32

Ok Imiss and Weetabix, I'm going by posts such as this:

why is the government putting a member of the security forces on the dock whilst letting IRA known murderers off? Hello anyone

The implication is that this soldier shouldn't be on the dock while IRA members are walking free. So support for this prosecution is conditional. And when answering these points I was labelled a 'disgrace' by Imiss, it's not entirely clear why but I'm guessing it's because I feel that both this prosecution, and the amnesty under the GFA, are necessary. Not because I'm a terrorist sympathiser but because it's a complex issue and I'm looking at the bigger picture.

RockyFlintstone · 15/03/2019 14:32

I've just googled it - I had no memory of the '93 bombing. When the 2 were mentioned I assumed that my memory of no one being tried was wrong.

Absolute bollocks you liar.

If this were true

No thank god I'm not. I was at Harrods though as a young teen when the bomb went off. The horror of that day won't ever leave.

Then you would know exactly who had been convicted of what. You would know that no one had been convicted of the bombing you had been caught up in. And it's quite likely that you would remember another bomb going off in the exact same place you had experienced your horror 10 years earlier.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/03/2019 14:41

RockyFlintstone

1 was 13 years old ffs. We were going to see Singing in the rain at the London Palladium and went there sightseeing.

I knew no one was convicted at the time. I had vague recollections of people being accused much later on. Therefore I assumed my.memory of no one being found guilty was wrong and the person who said 2 men were found guilty were right.

And no, I'm afraid that I can't remember another bomb (in fact looking at reports there have been 4).

Imissgmichael · 15/03/2019 14:43

Yep Sakura and I stand by what I said. Either no one is above the law or everyone should be let off. You can’t have it both ways, not even in the name of peace.

I personally think no one should be above the law. It’s outrageous that there’s former terrorists walking around without facing justice and it’s outrageous that only one former soldier will be in the dock.

Sakura7 · 15/03/2019 14:52

Imiss, do you stand by calling me a disgrace? I hold my view because as awful as it is for terrorists to walk free, I believe it was worth it to begin the healing process in Northern Ireland and to save countless lives. The violence had to stop.

My mother voted for the Good Friday Agreement even though she very much wishes the UVF perpetrators of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings could be brought to justice. But peace is more important.

I still don't see why you're equating the British Army and terrorist organisations as if they're comparable though. The soldiers had a duty to protect civilians, and instead they murdered 14 of them. It's in the Saville report. They never faced justice at any point.

RockyFlintstone · 15/03/2019 14:52

Right Weetabix whatever.

You went from answering the post about 2 men being convicted by saying:

Yes I know? And your point is (other than disbelieving me obviously).

The bomb was planted by the IRA - why is it so wrong of me to want everyone involved to face justice and to serve their full sentence? The 2 men who planted the bomb aren't the only 2 involved in the planning, planting, building, funding of it are they?

To asking that poster on your next post

And who was brought to justice for the bombing?

After that first post you googled it didn't you and saw that no one had been convicted (because the first google hit is the 1983 bombing) and thought that poster had got their facts wrong and you were trying to catch them out weren't you.

It's all on the thread.

I don't know why I am wasting my time with you tbh, you have form for this crap anyway.

Somerville · 15/03/2019 14:57

Yep Sakura and I stand by what I said. Either no one is above the law or everyone should be let off. You can’t have it both ways, not even in the name of peace.

Sorry? There are crimes every single day for which no-one is caught or prosecuted, for a myriad of reasons. Society doesn’t shrug and decide not to try to catch or prosecute anyone.

Those who are angry about people being let out of jail in 2008, or On The Run letters sent around that time, should be especially angry about the cover up about Bloody Sunday. Because the injustice of Bloody Sunday, and other similar atrocities supported by the British state, having been covered up directly lead to pardons for paramilitaries. Tony Blair had to get people sitting down to talk, and to do so he had to face the unfairness of internment of Catholic’s and the way the British had acted with impunity and never been even investigated.
And you also seem to have missed that there are ongoing prosecutions and imprisonments for even pre-GFA terror attacks, of both Loyalists and Republicans. When new evidence comes to light then prosecutions are allowed, and that is what has happened in this case of Bloody Sunday - new evidence has come to light. So there is actually not the the one-sided unfairness here that you’ve somehow interpreted. Confused

OP posts:
AnyWalls · 15/03/2019 15:03

Weetabix is full of shite.

How exactly were you 'caught up' in this bombing? Were you in London the day before or something?

Pathetic.

AnyWalls · 15/03/2019 15:04

And what fucking horror is it that will never leave you? You can't even remember which fucking year it was!