Bloody Sunday prosecution

[Somerville]

Only one man will be prosecuted for murdering civilians at the Bloody Sunday civil rights march.

The long-delayed inquiry found that all the killings were unjustified, that every adult and child who was killed had been unarmed, and that no warnings were gven before soldiers opened fire.

British justice at it's finest, eh?

AnyWalls

Of course. From the person who thinks they are being clever but clearly don't know where Harrods is nor that it was bombed in 1983.

Well I know if 17 people were involved in murdering and I was the only one facing charges, I'd be hanging them out to dry!

Of course. From the person who thinks they are being clever but clearly don't know where Harrods is nor that it was bombed in 1983.

Yes it was.

Sorry posted too soon. It was bombed in 1983 and 1993 with the later one being less severe.

AnyWalls

• “The RUC (now the PSNI), loyalist paramilitaries and the actual British army murdered, yes MURDERED innocent Irish people. Yet when the IRA retaliated, we're the baddies.”

AnyWalls your last sentence is very telling. Do you want to amend it? I hope I’m wrong but you know what it sounds like when you use the word ‘we’re’ when talking about the IRA. Are you also saying all the IRA murders were justified because in retaliation. Violent retaliation cannot ever be justified.

No one who’s murdered innocent people should have been given a free pass, regardless of what side they’re on. I’m entitled to that opinion and I know plenty of people who agree with me.

As for the comments about Weetabix, I was in Manchester just before the bombing and in Paris when Princess Diane died. I was traumatised when I sat and watched my mum die. Can’t recall any of the dates without checking. Am I lying also?

As for the Bloody Sunday prosecution, it’s been said that the court case could take up to 5 years and of course not all the suspects will be held accountable. It’s all the same issue isn’t. Very violent people being given a get out of free card. It’s not on.

Isn’t it.

Somerville Excellent post back there. Very few people can understand what it's like to live in those kinds of conditions. From Dublin I certainly can't, other than my mum's experience on Talbot St and the occasional security alert on a train or something. Which is absolutely nothing compared to life in Derry. Can't imagine having that threat hanging over you all the time.

There are some great UK posters here who seem to have done their research and have a good understanding of the history behind the troubles. But there definitely are some who could do with reading up on events with an open mind. I think any community that was treated the way Catholics were in NI would react eventually. People need to learn about the causes and not just blindly support the British Army.

m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/bloody-sunday/bloody-sunday-veterans-plan-mass-rally-in-derry-against-pps-decision-37915221.html Fucking hell.
“The Justice for Northern Ireland Veterans group is asking former soldiers to join them as they "descend en masse on Londonderry" to protest at the decision to charge a former paratrooper with murder. Alan Barry, founder of the group, said he would talk to ferry companies and coach operators to allow former soldiers "to come and march on Londonderry to show people we will not tolerate one of our own being prosecuted".”

This is the exact opposite of what is needed right now.

Sakura asked an interesting question earlier:

How come all you hear about in Britain is the IRA? Why is there not a scandal over the apparent cover up by British authorities?

I'm very simple terms - propaganda. The press fed us line after line that the IRA was The Big Bad and shepherded us into being scared to death of terrorist attacks on every corner. Everything else was quietly filed under 'The Plebs Don't Need To Know'.

Believe me or don't.

Yeah, I don't believe you.

Not because I dont think it's possible to go to Harrods before going to see a show at the Palladium. Because you massively fucked up on the thread and it's blatantly obvious that you are talking shite.

RockyFlintstone

Think what you like. It is true. I've also been accused of lying because I said I was in Knightsbridge at the time (!!!!!) or that because I said it was in '83 I'm also lying (!!!!!)

Imiss You seem to have a very black and white view with no consideration given to the context of life in NI at the time.

I'm not for one moment condoning the atrocities the IRA went on to commit, but anyone who does their research can surely see how the IRA came about. If your community was constantly terrorised, marginalised and abused by another group who had utter hatred for you and considered you sub-human, how would you feel? Loyalists were murdering Catholics and burning them out of their homes. It was horrific. Catholics welcomed the army initially as they thought they finally had some protection. But the people who were supposed to protect them joined in with the abusers. So they couldn't go to the police.

Can you not see how, when people feel under constant attack, they may seek a means to defend themselves?

Of course the IRA committed awful atrocities that can't be defended, but the behaviour of the British Army and the RUC in persecuting Catholics to the point where they snapped is just as dreadful.

No one who’s murdered innocent people should have been given a free pass, regardless of what side they’re on.

Yet you don't support the prosecution of the soldier?

Very contradictory statements. In fact, one of them is a lie. Which is it?

The idea of anyone who didn't live through it daily having the temerity to patronise those who did is unbelievable.

I didn't live through it, I was never caught up in it, and I don't claim to know how it felt. I did spend lots of my childhood in Belfast with my parent's friends, and saw some of the damage caused.

That doesn't make me any kind of authority, nor should it.

I did, however, at church in Fermanagh meet Gordon Wilson. His daughter was killed in the Enniskillen remembrance Day bombing. He spoke so calmly and so incredibly about forgiveness and his desperate need to see peace in NI. I was a child then, and I was in awe of him. As a mother now, I'm even more in awe of him because he was able to channel the grief and fear and anger at the brutality his family endured to be something good.

People talk of the bad people within the troubles, they don't talk of the campaigners, the people who pushed and fought peacefully to bring peace to their country.

It's never black and white, but let's be honest. There was no need for the British government to be in Ireland.

But nobody from Britain ever brings that up. Well I am saying it.

AnyWalls your last sentence is very telling. Do you want to amend it?

No, I have no desire to amend anything I've said.

If you shoot, murder, torture and bomb people for long enough, deny them civil rights, a right to a fair trial, a right to legal justice, they WILL respond. If you think they won't, you're idiotic.
Perhaps the British were accustomed to moving in, killing innocents and taking over and were not prepared for the Irish response when we didn't just roll over and play dead.

Britain caused all this by invading Ireland in the first place. As the song goes 'Have you got no fucking homes of your own?'.

There is 800 years of history there. There was also the great Irish Hunger (it wasn't a famine, there was plenty of food).

The Black and Tans, various battles, the leaders of the 1916 rising being taken out an shot without trial, the compromise on the 6 counties, and the persecution of Catholics in Northern Ireland.

With that backdrop, it is extraordinary that the British did not foresee what was to come. The Irish are not British. They have a very different history, culture, language and priorities. The Irish are also a fiercely proud people, of different ethnicity and history and culture to Britain. Chalk and cheese really.

If it came down to it and I had to pick a side? The British army or the IRA? I'd be with the IRA 100%.

All is now clear.

No 10 I want all those responsible for the Bloody Sunday murders prosecuted. I don’t care how old they are, keep them in prison for the rest of what’s left of their lives but only after a fair trial. However law can’t be seen to be lopsided, it should be the same for everyone.

AnyWalls have you looked at your last sentence? Are you really saying you were a member or just a supporter? What about the innocent victims of the IRA, most of them your own countrymen, women and children, your actually ok with that. What an awful attitude.

As for your history lesson about Ireland and the oppression of Catholics. I’m Catholic and my grandparents on one side were Irish Catholic’s. I don’t need a history lesson from someone filled with so much hate and lack of empathy for innocent victims of violent acts. Thank god my grandparents weren’t of the same mindset.

10IAR

Gordon Wilson was an incredible man. Anyone who isn't familiar with him should read about him and listen to the interview he gave after the bombing (there's a clip on his wiki page). He had just lost his daughter and was talking about bearing no grudge as he just wants peace. It's a shame he didn't live to see the Good Friday Agreement.

You have to look at these events in the coming text to which they happened, the fear of being infront of a crowd that maybe hiding gunmen, the limited communications and lack of an overall view of events. I doubt any of the soldiers opened fire out of anything other than a reflex to defend themseles. I'm not stating that the killings were right or that we can't learn from what happened but i do feel prosecution is not appropriate. I welcome Gavin Williaamsons' comments as soldiers do deserve support in these circumstances.
I wonder how many of those willing to condemn have been in uniform or were even alive at the time of these events, few I suspect.
At this point I feel it would be more appropriate to ensure that the practical lessons have been learnt, not least the risks of deploying troops for security operations in civilian areas. Communications play a huge part on any battlefield, but in a civilian security / policing role are even more so. Knowing where your support forces are, where shots were fired from, crowd numbers and movements result in better decisions on the ground. Technology and equipment have improved but doctrine is just as important.

Imissgmichael apologies I misquoted you with one of them.

You clearly do need a history lesson though.

Sakura7 even as a young child I was struck by the power in what he was saying, that he could bring himself to sit face to face with the men who killed his daughter in order to work towards peace was absolutely incredible. It is a terrible shame he didn't live to see the GFA.

SciFiRules you clearly need to read up on what 1para were sent to Derry to do.

Oh and DP is ex army, he fucking loathes the Paras, who to this day crack jokes. His ex army buddies agree. So are 20 men who wore the uniform enough?

What exactly were they "defending" themselves against? NONE OF THE MARCHERS WERE ARMED!

Front the point of view of the guys on the ground you don't know if the people you are facing are armed or not so the fear is still there. A crowd also doesn't need to be armed with firearms to be lethal either.
I really don't support prosecution of soldiers in this way, learn the lessons yes, pursue those who manipulated situations for there own benefit certainly.

I tend to avoid these threads because I still cannot believe the ignorance surrounding the troubles & it makes me angry. You see it all the time when there is a terrorist attack & people start a thread & inevitably the IRA come up.

I was born & raised in London but my parents were Republican & from Dublin & all the rest of my family are still there with some 2nd cousins etc in Belfast.
Many people don’t seem to realise there were terrorists on both sides, the involvement of the British Army, the reasons why the troubles came about in the first place & no it wasn’t because of religion. Many seem unaware of Bloody Sunday or the 74 bombings in Dublin. Living in London with the threat of the IRA was not comparable to living with the troubles in NI (where the vast majority of deaths occurred) and I say this as someone who was evacuated from a dept store as a child due to a bomb threat & with a dad who worked in Bishopgate during the 80s/90s. Not to mention the casual racism that was so prevalent, my dad was a frequent flier at that time & was never not stopped. A family friend worked for the Irish Export Board & was subjected to daily abuse via the phones. And now everyone wants an Irish passport!

Were your grandparents Northern Irish Catholics though Imiss? If not, they didn't experience persecution of their community.

Whatever about Any's post, can you not see how constant persecution of your people, with no possibility of justice from the law, can lead to the community wanting to defend itself? How would you feel if your house was set on fire and a member of your family died, while the rest of you are homeless? The same is happening to your neighbours. The police are colluding with the people who attacked you, so they're not going to help. This is what happened.

Once again I'm not condoning IRA actions but I'm trying to get people to think about the situation Catholics were in and try to understand why the violence came about.

Please engage and talk through these points rather than just dismissing my post.

Sakura7

I can't understand what it was like because I've never lived through that but I can try to imagine.

What I can't understand is how you move from that to planting bombs in say Warrington?

If you targeted the people that were persecuting you I could maybe see the argument a bit more but I can't see how anyone can justify killing entirely innocent people (and I apply that to all sides)

SciFiRules
You're clearly not familiar with the findings of the Saville report. Children were shot from behind as they ran away. People holding their hands up and waving white hankies while trying to help their dying friends were shot dead. They were innocent people and they were massacred.

I've copied the below information from a previous poster, outlining who the victims were and what they were doing when they were shot. Please read it:

John 'Jackie' Duddy, age 17. Shot as he ran away from soldiers in the car park of Rossville Flats.The bullet struck him in the shoulder and entered his chest. Three witnesses said they saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran.He was the first fatality on Bloody Sunday. Like Saville, Widgery also concluded that Duddy was unarmed.

Michael Kelly, age 17. Shot in the stomach while standing at the rubble barricade on Rossville Street. Both Saville and Widgery concluded that Kelly was unarmed.

Hugh Gilmour, age 17. Shot as he ran away from soldiers near the rubble barricade.The bullet went through his left elbow and entered his chest. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit[ corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative.

William Nash, age 19. Shot in the chest at the rubble barricade. Witnesses stated Nash was unarmed. Three people were shot while apparently going to his aid, including his father Alexander Nash.

John Young, age 17. Shot in the face at the rubble barricade, apparently while crouching and going to the aid of William Nash. Two witnesses stated Young was unarmed.

Michael McDaid, age 20. Shot in the face at the rubble barricade, apparently while crouching and going to the aid of William Nash.

Kevin McElhinney, age 17. Shot from behind, near the rubble barricade, while attempting to crawl to safety. Two witnesses stated McElhinney was unarmed
James 'Jim' Wray, age 22. Shot in the back while running away from soldiers in Glenfada Park courtyard. He was then shot again in the back as he lay mortally wounded on the ground. Witnesses, who were not called to the Widgery Tribunal, stated that Wray was calling out that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time.

William McKinney, age 27. Shot in the back as he attempted to flee through Glenfada Park courtyard.

Gerard McKinney, age 35. Shot in the chest at Abbey Park. A soldier ran through an alleyway from Glenfada Park and shot him from a few yards away. Witnesses said that when he saw the soldier, McKinney stopped and held up his arms, shouting "Don't shoot! Don't shoot!", before being shot. The bullet apparently went through his body and struck Gerard Donaghy behind him.

Gerard Donaghy, age 17. Shot in the stomach at Abbey Park while standing behind Gerard McKinney. Both were apparently struck by the same bullet.

Patrick Doherty, age 31. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville Flats. He was shot by soldiers who came out of Glenfada Park. Doherty was photographed, moments before and after he died, by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from "Soldier F" that he had shot a man holding a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs show Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative.

Bernard 'Barney' McGuigan, age 41. Shot in the head when he walked out from cover to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief to indicate his peaceful intentions.

John Johnston, age 59. Shot in the leg and left shoulder on William Street 15 minutes before the rest of the shooting started.Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park.He died on 16 June 1972; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot.

You have to look at these events in the coming text to which they happened, the fear of being infront of a crowd that maybe hiding gunmen, the limited communications and lack of an overall view of events. I doubt any of the soldiers opened fire out of anything other than a reflex to defend themselves

You need to read the conclusions of the Saville inquiry before you continue spouting such offensive rubbish. The adults and children killed that day have been maligned enough as on the offensive or armed, and it’s now conclusively proved that they weren’t.

I'm not stating that the killings were right or that we can't learn from what happened but i do feel prosecution is not appropriate.

It’s not appropriate to prosecute someone for shooting a child in the back, as he held out a white handkerchief trying to assist his injured friend??? Your moral compass needs some serious attention.