What plans do you have for your old age? Do you expect your children to be involved as carers?

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

I know it sounds like a journalisty question, but honestly it's not! I'm just a regular Mumsnetter.

My plans for my old age very emphatically include not relying on my children (who will hopefully be parents of youngish adults or teens by the time I get there) to look after me or worry about me or support me in any way.

If I'm lucky enough to get there, I expect to be living in sheltered accommodation by the time I'm 80. I plan to save enough for private carers if/when I need them, but if that can't be done, then I'll go and live in a nursing home without making my children feel guilty about it!

I had my children quite late (as my mother had me - she was 31! but old at the time) so I am aware they could be in the sandwich generation and I just don't want any extra on their shoulders.

Shatnerswig, dementia is often diagnosed quite a while after symptoms have been pretty clear to relatives for some time. Not infrequently it's because the person refuses to see a doctor.

My mother was diagnosed reasonably early, but even then she had completely forgotten what the dr had told her (Alzheimer's) by the time she got home maybe 15 minutes later. And very crossly denied it if we ever tried to remind her, so we soon stopped - no point when she was never going to remember.

Memory can be seriously affected early on.
The first time I knew (with sinking heart, since we'd been through it all before with FiL) that it really was dementia, and not just old-age forgetfulness, was when my mother rang her bank about something - she'd always been very clued up about finances - and could not remember, literally the instant she'd put the phone down, what they'd said.
Within another minute, she'd forgotten that she'd forgotten, so at least she wasn't fretting about it. 🙁

Annabelle I agree with you on that. Dh and I want to try to stay as active as possible for as long as possible.

We are still childless and approaching 40 so might not have the option of being cared for by children anyway.

I won't lie and say I'm not worried about it. The idea of a home fills me with dread but so does the idea of ending it all myself.

Here's to getting struck by lightning just as I'm about to lose it.

Brilliant question, OP.

My plan is not to live too long. Seriously. I have watched both my parents and DH's gorgeous mother be kept propped alive by NHS. All they do is manage pain and spend their lives in bed or hospital appointments. They have no interest in the world, in family, in anyone or anything but their own ailments. They are like helpless, whiny, demanding toddlers, dull and in pain and to my eyes have been kept alive long after their bodies were ready to pack in.

I want never to lean on my children in that selfish, petulant way that my father leans on us, and so many old people lean on their children. Empathy seems to die in the brain at that age. I hope by then that voluntary euthanasia will be allowed. I want a great life until I'm unable to be independent. At the first sign of that, I plan to throw a big party for eveyrone I love, do a massive Kondo so no one has to deal with my shit afterwards, then take a pill and drift off.

Some people, like my gorgeous father-in-law, are completely compos mentis, driving his cool car well into his eighties, flying across the world to visit family, completely up on all new tech (he teaches me how to do stuff on the Mac or on my phone.) If I could be like him I'd be happy to live past 100, but he's a rarity.

"mil can see the effect it's having on sil but she continues to insist she does everything, even the cleaning and the gardening - she won't spend a penny - it's time we stopped being ruled by the fear of upsetting MIL because that fear is resulting in everyone else being upset - all the time!"

that is so sad. I wonder why the MIL acts that way.

Exactly. My granny lived to well over 100 and was completely compos mentis. It would be absolutely daft to hold her up as anything but an outlier, but I see many people on here saying, "My Auntie Joan did a sky dive last week and she's 98," blah de blah.

I thoroughly agree that many (perhaps most) elderly people do become extremely self-centred, obsessed with their health and completely lose any filter. Medical advances have made the hippocratic oath outmoded. Mil had several bouts of pneumonia, yet despite having a DNR she was carted off to hospital, pumped full of antibiotics and lived another four years... as a vegetable. She would have been lived if she knew what was going on!

Also agree that very few people admit they have dementia/Alzheimers, and if they have a "conspirator" (spouse) it is very difficult to do something. Fil desperately covered for mil and it was only with hindsight that you could see how bad she had been getting.

livid I meant...

Irma, my mum has a DNR but she didn't include antibiotics in that, is that what you mean?

I would never ask or expect my DCs to care for me.
My very elderly DPs are currently heavily reliant on the three of us (two of which have serious health conditions themselves) because my DF refuses to pay for help (very well off) and there's sod all we can do.
So no option but to carry on.

This thread reminded me of this great talk by Alanna Shaikh on preparing to get Alzheimer's. I do think a frank, open discussion about the possible futures and what can be expected and what we can do in our lives that may make that easier is important.

I think particularly still in some parts of the UK, at least in my experience, people feel many of the issues of old age or illness or dying are still seen as shameful and embarrassing and some sort of personal failing rather than a part of life. Both in my spouse's family and in many of my British friends' families, there is an expectation to hide away, that no one should see or talk about it much if at all, how the importance of remembering them how they were means not seeing people at their weakest. I think this puts a terrible burden on those in need and those who are caring, whether a member of the family who are also in need or professionals dealing with balancing needs of a patient who wants secrecy and their families, and those who were once close who are pushed away because it becomes no longer right to see them like that or talk about that now. It just creates this extended state of waiting and grieving because you end up cut off and knowing the next time you're going to be allowed to be in the same room with them, they're going to be in a box.

I've gone through this so many times now and while I entirely understand not wanting one's kids to do personal or daily care, I don't think I will ever understand not wanting friends and family close or to know what I'm going through at such a time.

There's another thing to consider with sheltered flats and that's that they are very expensive and the leases contain unfair terms. It is a bit like buying a car, you are better off buying a flat second hand. But they are difficult to sell. Some of those complexes are quite social but that's about the only advantage I can see.

Personally I think you are better off living in a normal flat or bungalow and buying in care/other services eg doing shopping online if you can, getting a cleaner etc. And you can have a thing you wear around your neck which calls a ambulance if you fall. MIL had one before she became bedbound.

I remember a 94 year old called Becky in the nursing home where I worked 18 years ago.

Every night she would scream help help! So loudly that the neighbours in the bungalows nearby would complain about her!

When I asked her 'why do you scream at night Becky' she cackled & said 'because I can hahaha'.

She may have been in a home & in a wheelchair but she was fed well, cared for & having a great time upsetting the neighbours....

I've looked after lots of elderly people & can't decide whether I want to be the sweet old lady who everyone loves caring for, or the one who kicks up a storm like Becky!

By the way lots of the very elderly I've known are quite scared of dying, & love boasting about how old they are. It's commonplace for them to add a year or so into their age!

My great uncle Cecil was still walking to the pub at 95 then went into a home for a just a year with dementia & died aged 96. He was quite a happy chap & I'd be happy to end up like him. I doubt I'll escape the dementia as all my grandparents had it but I hope I'll be a sweet happy dementia sufferer like one of my nana instead of like my other nan who was an agitated lost soul.

Very very very few people pay enough tax over their lifetime to claim that they have paid enough in to cover their elderly care

I disagree. I realise the state can't afford it but that's a different issue to it being wrong for the state to afford it. If you get cancer, you get fantastic treatment from the NHS (I know some drugs/experimental treatments are not covered). But if you get dementia, you are on your own (unless it is very early onset). Same with Parkinsons. Because they're diseases of old age, they don't matter.

But my aunt had lymphoma in her 80s. My dad had Parkinsons in his 80s. She was cared for by the NHS, he wasn't. I don't really see why there should be a distinction.

I'm a home career, and while a lot of my clients have family, they prefer us going there as it relieves some of the 'burden' off their children. Some of them even apologise for asking me to do things for them even though it's what I'm there for (Apparently I make a great cup of tea )
Some of them do seem quite lonely though and I wonder if a care home environment would be better for them as they would have company.
I wouldn't expect my children to look after me at all, but a phone call or visit wouldn't go amiss

It’s a good question. I would hope my children would care for me in the sense of having me as part of their lives, visiting me or a granny annex.

However, I wouldn’t wish them to be my heavy duty ‘carer’ in particular for advanced dementia - that is a big ask and a full time job. Having seen the care my grandparents needed I’m doubtful it’s possible.

I hope to be in sufficient funds to buy in care at the home for as long as possible and then if needed a decent care home. I’m not sure dignitas is a very practical solution to dementia for the reasons so don’t plan to rely on it. But will have a DNR type arrangement recorded should I go that way.

@FuzzyShadowChatter - excellent post. So many of us are squeamish about discussing ageing, disease, decline and death like it's something to be embarrassed about. However, it's a part of life - just like bloody, messy childbirth.

I agree there's a reluctance to talk to illness and death - but there's also a reluctance to plan for old age and to move to a more practical property when still young and fit enough to manage it themselves. My aunt, aged 77, has a four bedroom house all her herself and it's stuffed to the gunnels with all her crap. She makes token attempts to have a clear out every now and again, but the wardrobes in all four bedrooms are full to bursting with her clothes, there are overflowing bookshelves in every room, and enough knick-knicks to fill a skip. And she has no DC of her own ....

We have just cleared out my 90 year old MILs house and it was so sad. It has inspired me to start a Swedish death clean. We retire in a couple of years and any changes we make reflect how our needs might change over the next 20 years or so. We have fitted a downstairs loo, changed the bath for a large accessible shower and are trying to get everything in tip top condition - Windows, roof, doors, boiler, etc.

I definitely don't want my children to be doing what my DH has been doing for the past couple of years - living away from home so he could provide night personal care, arranging and liaising with carers (and carry on working FT). I did paperwork, banking, sorted benefits, house sale, persuaded MIL that she could no longer manage.

We have cut short holidays, spent Christmas in emergency rooms. I don't want any of this to happen to my DC. It's simply not sustainable.

She refused to move to us as it was too far away from the few friends she has so a care home was the only option. She has now been there a year and she looks so much better - more cared for and more alive. She's not going to get better but this is the best we can do

I think so many people think being at home would be better than a care home, but that isn't always the case.

DM lives in a block of retirement flats. A number of people who moved into these flats when they were reasonably fit and active, have now had quite a deterioration in health and are now practically housebound and relying on carers. Many don't have family nearby. They are determined to stay in their home. However, they lead very lonely lives and can't take part in the many social events that occur in the flats as they can't, independently, leave their own flat.

If they were in a care home, there would be similar social events, but they would have someone who could help them to get out of bed/their room to get to these activities, and help them take part. Also take them outside to the gardens etc.

This has been a worrying read, I'm early twenties so not thought about my old age and how that will affect my baby DD but I have started thing about how my parents, grandparents and uncles old age will affect me, her and my DP.

One of my grandparents has Alzheimer's and is being cared for by my uncle. He's not doing that well and seems to be developing dementia himself, he doesn't go out, hygiene is going downhill and my poor nan would be dismayed at the state her house is in if she were still alive. When my granddad dies my uncle will fall apart, alcoholism will return and he will need care but he's already useless at sorting things out. My mum is too far away to do much more than visit occasionally and make calls.

Then there's my parents and my brother, my brother has SN, will never be independent and is becoming an adult, they refuse to think about his long term care. One day they will be too old and unfit to look after him, I can guarantee it will fall to me but they live far from me too. Their house is huge with loads of steps so I hope they stay fit for ever because they can't live on the ground floor.

Thinking about having potentially an uncle, both parents and my brother to deal with fills me with dread.

I couldn’t leave her to rot in a home.

Faffandahalf why is going to a care home, surrounded by other people, and with staff on hand 24 hours a day, a terrible prospect? Why is it "rotting" in a home?

my mother has just reassured me that it's fine for me to put her in a home if needs be

this after a day of clearing immense amounts of dad's stuff. I hadn't heard of the Swedish death clean, I don't have DC anyway, but if anyone else still has receipts in drawers from 1968 - please, for the sake of your DC, don't leave them to be dealt with while also dealing with grief. I put out six bags of nonsense today and that's just today! in the weeks after his death I cleared a bunch more trying to find papers for probate.

I loved him, but really, this clearing up has not been a good experience and there's still loads of it!

My parents are 82 and 87 and I have a brother with LD that lives with them, Dd had Alzheimer’s. They have been wonderful, loving, amazing parents. No way in hell would I assign them to a residential home unless every other possible avenue had been explored.

I would hope that my DC felt the same about me when the time comes. We do have sufficient funds to pay for care at home if needed for as long as possible.

@fairliz is spot on. I am also in my fifties and have seen the same.

We found piles of papers/opened post/unopened post stuffed everywhere. Sides of chairs, under small tables, every drawer and cupboard in sideboard. We brought home 12 bin bags full of paperwork and that's after I'd cleared all the obvious junk mail etc before we left. It took me weeks to sort through and I'm worried that I missed something important.

The point of the Swedish death clean is that you leave everything in order so your descendants don't have to deal with it (read old diaries, love letters, etc)

I think the Swedish people are quite private and feel that their life should remain personal to them not all and sundry after death.

One of the other advantages of SDC is that if you have specialised collections or possessions, you can dispose of them to places that will make the most of them, rather than wholesale dumping on charity shops.

What I found really sad was that although there was mountains of stuff nothing was really wanted by us or other family. A couple of the white goods were reused but everything else went to the British heart foundation - some to be sold and awful lot went to the tip - at least a couple of skips. All those years but nothing really to show for it. She did take pictures and some ornaments with her but although the room is fine it's not a 4 bed roomed house

In the bottom of the wardrobe were piles of gifts she had received - toiletries, costume jewellery, etc that had never been used