I’ve accidentally raised a brat and I don’t know how to deal with it

[Babayaggatheboneylegged]

I’m at a loss over how to deal with my six-year-old daughter.

She’s been a ‘tricky’ character all her life. As in, not very amenable and not one for just getting on with things. If she’s unhappy about a situation, she makes it VERY clear. She can be really sweet and caring, but she is very stroppy, sometimes with a self-destructive streak. She’s usually prepared to cut off her nose to spite her face.

This year, we agreed with my husband’s siblings (most of whom also have kids) that we’d chip in and get one present for the dc from the collective aunties and uncles, to reduce the sheer amount of STUFF the kids get. I’m particularly in favour of this as we live in a small house, and I just don’t think my kids really need anything. I hate that Christmas ‘thing’ of getting stuff for the sake of it.

So my kids have got tickets to a show this weekend as their ‘aunties and uncles’ pressie. I mentioned it to DD this morning on the way to school, and she sighed loudly and moaned. Like it was this massive chore to her.

I was thinking, WTF? I said she needed to remember how lucky she is, how that was no way to behave when we’re talking about a gift someone has given her etc.

She turned to me and said, ‘well, I don’t believe in Christmas!’

As is often the case with dd, I didn’t actually know what to say in response to this.

As she was going into school, I asked her again, nicely, to remember how lucky she was and she replied with the ‘I don’t even believe in Christmas,’ thing again. I said it didn’t matter what she believed in, she was very lucky and shouldn’t be spoilt and ungrateful. And then she went into school.

I think she is spoilt. We take her lots of nice places, we have a big extended family who are all really generous to her and she wants for nothing. We’ve never been the kind of parents who give her everything she asks for. We do say ‘no’ to a lot of stuff.

But it’s clearly not enough. I’m just so disappointed.

And I don’t know how to address it.

Part of me is SERIOUSLY tempted to say, well if you don’t believe in Christmas, we won’t do it then. And give her presents away. But I know I’d never actually go through with it.

But is there anything I can do without resorting to this sort of nuclear option? I so don’t want to raise an entitled and ungrateful child. And yet here we are…

Has anyone out there successfully tackled an attitude problem like this? Is she likely to grow out of this kind of thing?

Ok, ok, we've swung from 'burn all her presents before her eyes' to 'try to understand her feeeeeelllinggs.'

I honestly do try to understand her and see where she is coming from, even though I don't find her straightforward at all at times. I was just a bit taken aback that a mention of a nice treat at the weekend evoked such a negative response.

I do find this a stressful time of year, and I'm not one of those 'everything must be magical' mums. I just want/wanted us to have a nice family day out!

You say yourself that going to shows/events etc is kind of 'normal' to her, but are upset that she didn't show great enthusiasm at the news of going to a show.

You can make going to shows a special treat. Just cut it down to something that happens maybe once or twice a year. Then you can expect your child to be excited and grateful when the time comes!

But it seems that you feel that going to shows/events is part of how you parent/educate your child, and how you spend time together as a family. It isn't a special, once-a-year treat to you. Which is fair enough, has nothing to do with spoiling, but everything with your family priorities.

But this show, you expect more gratitude and excitement for. Rather than less, which would be fair to expect, given the busy time of year. You expect more, not because it is a better show/event, not because it is something your child has been waiting for, but simply because this one is a gift.

That is a bit like, you always buy her good expensive school shoes because to you it is important that her feet are healthy and have room to grow and develop. Then you buy her a pair of school shoes for Christmas. Then you are disappointed that she doesn't express huge gratitude and enthusiasm.
Does that mean you should cut down and only buy her cheap school shoes in the future, until she learns to appreciate expensive school shoes? Does it mean she is spoilt by having good school shoes?

So: If you feel she is getting to much 'stuff', then by all means cut down on 'stuff'. If you feel she is having too many 'experiences', meaning it is overwhelming, then cut down on 'experiences'.

But it sounds to me that you are wanting your 6yo to be grateful for things that you provide for her because you think they are important. You think she is spoilt because she doesn't appreciate them, because she has never had to go without. Would you rather she went without (things that you think are important)?

No, things that you think are important for your family/for her, and that you therefore usually provide for her as a matter of course, can't just be re-defined as a 'treat' just because it is Christmas.

And your DD's disgruntlement in this specific instance sounds less like ingratitude and more like 'can we stop making everything about Christmas and just get on with our lives please' which is a sentiment I can very much agree with right now!

My kids loved Mamma Mia - I thought they'd love a trip to the theatre but they really didn't - one said to me on the way home - I think we should have gone to see Wicked!
Later that week we took them to the circus, it was the worse circus show I have ever watched and guess what - they loved it - talked about it for ages.
There's no accounting for the things that kids like - sometimes the cardboard box is the best bit of the gift. Don't try to force her to lie to you to make you feel better - you are teaching her not to share her feeling with you.

So, she can believe what she does or doesn’t want to in relation to xmas, as long as she doesn’t act like a spoilt brat who is too good for everything!

That mskkes a bit more sense, but you shouldn't give her the idea that you believe what she believes is unimportant.

I still think you're coming at this from the wrong side though. Instead of telling her she's spoilt (which, let's face it, is an adult concept), why don't you tell her you prefer it when she's kind and polite to people.

I'm not sure what having a nice family day out has to do with her reaction on a stressful school morning though? You'd had a go at her, you were snappy and grumpy, then she was snappy and grumpy back. That's all that happened. Chances are on the actual day of the play she'll have a fab time. Don't overblow it!

Parenting is the hardest job in the world I reckon OP and mumsnet is the proof that a lot of us are constantly wondering if we're doing it 'right'

How does she normally respond to the "big chats"? Just she sounds a bit like my 7yo ds who couldn't even say what he was being talked to about by that point. A couple of things you've said stand out, such as going into herself and being "tricky", as being potentially anxiety/neurodiversity based. We have just started the process to get ds assessed for ASD. Maybe worth considering the signs for your dd at least.

As for kids being grateful, it's completely normal for that not to be the case and I also get regularly frustrated with my two about this. Simplify things has been one strategy: we cut down on paid activities and do more free stuff like nature reserves etc. Lots of free time to just be and play how they like. I would agree with checking out www.ahaparenting.com for more ideas.

As for Christmas, I'm trying to seriously cut down the stuff aspect too (see my thread on this very subject!) as.last year dc were clearly overwhelmed. So stick to your guns with that one. I often comment that kids are professionally ungrateful - and that's their job! Oh, but I do crack down on disrespectful behaviour and usually a response of "I beg your.pardon?" in a certain tone does the trick.

Finally, do you and dd have any time just you two? You mentioned a younger brother and certainly for my ds having special time with mummy is a huge deal (NEVER to be taken away as a consequence though)

[I was brought up in the ‘70’s, I’m not the least bit afraid of telling kids off and having consequences, or < gasp> unrelated punishments. I will explain things to them, but I will not do endless rounds of ‘Don’t do that darling...Freddy has feelings poppet’...]

Don’t tell her Dad not to let her watch TV tonight.

Not seeing the show would be massively over reacting AND not fair on the ‘Aunties and Uncles’ who’s bought the She was stroppy, she didn’t pull the fur out of the cat bit by bit!

She’s 6. It’s nearly the end of term and they're pretty much all tired, over excited, and fairly horrid at times. It’s best to just ignore it as best you can. She wasn’t nasty to anyone, she was just a bit grumpy.

At 6, they have no comprehension really of, well, lots of things in life 🤣.

She was tired and grumpy, just ignore it like you’d want your DH to do if you were tired & grumpy. Save your angst for when she’s really rude or naughty. Make the most of living in London and being able to give her so many experiences and a great life. She’ll turn out just fine because your attitude isn’t spoilt, it’s appreciative and she’ll learn from that. Truly.

I regularly worry that ds is a spoiled brat too as he often has a meltdown after a lovely treat/day out. It's like he can't cope with the pressure of a positive activity so does what he feels familiar with. I've learnt not to expect too much from 'Lovely days out' And certainly not to spend too much on them! And mine are shattered at the moment, way more than I remember from last year.

I think you need to have a think about what is acceptable and what isn't, so you can be consistent in your expectations of her. As this thread has made very clear, everyone has different boundaries, and ways of doing things. You need to work out what works for your family. I'm not sure what form stropping takes, but there is nothing wrong with being a bit grumpy, and she shouldn't be punished for that.

Rudeness however is not on, and she needs to know that, and what the consequences are for it. Gratitude is something that you can work on, but it is difficult for a 6 year old to understand how lucky she is, and I think expecting her to get that is expecting a bit much.

You have not raised a brat, she sounds like a normal independent stubborn little girl to me! I laugh at my 6 yr old if he questions Father Christmas and say 'well it's up to you if you want to risk saying that out loud but I'm not sure if you'll get anything under the tree if Father Christmas hears!' Obviously I do it in a jokey way and I actually say the same to my 17 year old! With regards to the show - my 6 year old would not thank you for tickets either to be honest but I'd have just said 'excuse me!!! We will have a lovely time actually, it's going to be full of other kids and you'll probably get ice-creams and a drink! You can always stay at home on your own and practise your writing instead if you'd rather!'. I find taking a light hearted approach works best with mine. 6 years olds don't apply logic until things are spelt out sometimes and they don't consider situations before the react. I wouldn't punish personally and I definitely wouldn't have her miss the show - how will you say 'I told you so....next time give it a chance before assuming you won't like it!

As a child I found the whole Christmas thing pretty suffocating , maybe she does too ?

As a kid you potentially get carted around to endless "Christmas jollies " pantomime , carol service , family get togethers , it's very crowded when you go shopping , everyone is over excited and noisy , school panto , every club you belong to has its 'Christmas party ' the list is endless and as a kid it's out of your control as to most of what you get expected to join in yet labelled 'ungrateful' if you don't enjoy it

At six she's still very little and probably feeling overwhelmed

Jesus she's six. All this angst about a little girl being a little grumpy after she got a telling off about her tie.

As often the way in these threads the usual crowd of be as cruel as you can to your child are out in force.

Then they come back and start their own threads saying my adult child is no contact with me, I can't fathom why,,,

As for consequences:

With DS we successfully used 'escalating consequences' so if something kept going on (usually, he kept arguing his case) consequences got worse and worse. E.g. one day without screen time, then two days, etc ... that would quickly stop him in his tracks and get him to change his behaviour.

With DD, the same strategy was an unmitigated disaster, invariably escalating all the way to the big red nuclear button being pushed and everyone ending up unhappy, but with little or no effect on behaviour. I feel it is because bad behaviour from DD is not really by choice, but an expression of her feelings. She needs a lot of help in managing her behaviour, rather than consequences/rewards post factum. It's not for the lack of wanting, usually, for her, so creating even more incentives such as rewards and consequences does not affect her ability to do the right thing. Boundaries and help with achieving them, is the way to go with her.

So consequences depend very much on the individual child.

In your case OP I am not sure what exactly your DD's 'crime' was (she was not excited and she doesn't believe in Christmas...?)
She hasn't done anything wrong yet but I would be making sure that she doesn't in future either:
I would be having a chat regarding my expectations towards her expression of gratitude when she says thank you to her aunts and uncles. Along the lines of, even when a gift isn't wonderful to you, I still expect you to be grateful for the effort, thought, the sheer fact that you got a gift. And I expect you to be polite towards the gift givers.

We do have a fair bit of ‘us’ time – e.g. when we do bedtime stories, I generally do hers (she prefers me! ) and DH does her brothers. Me and her dad work though, so she does after school club most days. Life is probably not IDEAL for her, but we try to work with what we’ve got.

Last Saturday night, we had a friend’s daughter staying over, so I gave the kids a bowl of treats to eat while they were watching telly before bed. She turned to me and said, in a stroppy voice, ‘Muuummm, why did you put RAISINS in my bowl?!’

I said, ‘did you really just complain there? After I’ve given you a whole bowl of treats, you are complaining about it?’

And she looked contrite and shook her head. I think she was probably worried about having the remainder of the bowl removed. So I think she did realise that comment wasn’t ok. And maybe she will realise she shouldn’t have moaned about the show.

It’s not the first time she’s had a strop on the way to school and I haven’t had the wherewithal (or time) to deal with it before she goes into class. And I feel really shit about that.

It’s just she’ll say stuff that stops me in my tracks and I just don’t know how to respond.

Apparently they fuck you up, your mum and dad...

I just saw, she wants to give her old toys away...surely that she enjoys it is a good thing? Thats not bratty behaviour, OP....

Is that code Brenda?

I've learnt not to expect too much from 'Lovely days out' And certainly not to spend too much on them! I'm with Misty on this. Or at least to limit elements of a "lovely day" to things we know from experience are manageable. Eg we go the same place every year on holiday and quickly learnt that a show and a meal out is too much and it's better to have one "outing" and one easy sandwich or takeaway meal, make sure we get some fresh air and a walk before sitting in the dark theatre for a few hours.

It's so easy to plan what you feel is going to be amazing and then feel a bit glum when they either remember the funny dog they saw on the beach instead of the expensive show, or it's all going fine till they're overtired, hungry or just overstimulated and ratty. Most of the time, they haven't asked for the things we invest time, money and planning in and it's not fair to expect too much gratitude even when we thought it would be perfect!

They don't come with a manual sadly . I was stopped in my tracks the first time ds shouted he hated me and wished I was dead! he was 6 and I thought I had at least a few more years before that one. Good advice is that we don't need to respond immediately to everything our kids throw at us - only the emergencies like running in the road etc. And our knee jerk response is often our own stuff (from our own parents! ) rather than a considered one.

I dont see what she has said wrong.
She doesnt feel excited about the show youve organised. Youve brought her up to have loads of stuff, so she doesnt find christmas particularly special. Shes not really living up to your fantasy is she.

I really recommend *How to Talk so Kids will Listen, and Listen so Kids will Talk'. I realised when I read this book that I spent a lot of time trying to tell my children they weren't tired/hungry or whatever and a lot of time trying to tell them to cheer up/be grateful/be happy and so forth. I spent a lot of time actually telling them they didn't feel the way they felt, and trying to get them to feel differently!

The book is great as it suggests ways you can put the onus on the child to take charge of their own moods and solve their own problems, which they can often do if you stop telling them how to think/feel/act. So, in this scenario, when she sighed, you could say (neutrally) 'that was a big sigh!' and leave her to respond. She may have just said 'I'm really really tired' in which case you would have had something in common, instead of telling her off for not being happy/grateful enough about an event in a few days time.

There's lots of strategies in there- and it isn't about 'feeeeelings' (which I find quite a patronising remark given that children are allowed feelings and emotions, as are you as the adult) in that sense, it's about setting sensible boundaries AND allowing them to work out strategies for themselves. 6 is a good age to read this book as they've moved on from simpler toddler taming stuff.

I just want to come back and emphasis that I think punishment for every little thing is going to be counter productive. I find the book ‘how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk’ v helpful.

And I wouldn't feel too shit about not dealing with strops before school- she might need that venting before going into a setting where she holds it all In? And calmly letting it wash over you can be the best response sometimes as it shows that big feelings don't have to be overwhelming or too big to handle.

Oh if only I could practice what I preach...!

I really don't think you should 'punish' her or make her feel shame for a comment that was probably just a reaction to the mood she was in at the time.

Have a chat with her after school when everyone is relaxed and I'll bet you get a totally different response. My DD does this a lot, she's after a reaction/some attention usually and I try not to give it the oxygen. It soon passes.

I think false or forced gratitudes and apologies are just the worst thing and I'd rather children not say anything at all than pretend.
I agree that there is an overwhelming amount going on at this time of year, she's only 6 and home is her safe place where she should be able to say what she is thinking without fear of being shamed. I am not condoning the stropiness but how many times have you inwardly groaned (or grounded to your DH) at the prospect of doing something/going somewhere? Cut her some slack and have a chat after school, IF the same thing happens, then threaten to leave her behind and follow it through if necessary.

UnderMajorDomoMinor great minds think alike! It's a good book for this age group I think.