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Staying at in-laws with dc and there is no food

960 replies

daytimemom · 11/08/2018 16:30

Arrived at in-laws with DH (their son) and our two dc’s. For context, they are very well off. Live in huge house in the country, spend six months a year on cruises, have new car etc.

This is the first time we have visited them in their new house. Normally they stay at our house where we cook meals for them, provide wine and snacks and generally be very hospitable. They certainly enjoy all our food and drink.

This is what they served DH and I for dinner; two small roast potato’s, one small parsnip, teaspoon of peas and carrots, three slices of chicken. Our dc who are 11 and 12 had the same but with one roast potato rather than two. Dessert was one scoop of ice cream. DH asked if he could have another scoop but was told no as the carton (think Ben & Jerry’s small sized carton) had to last them a week.

By evening the dc were ravenous. I asked mil if dc could have a slice of toast or cereal. Was told they only had muesli and one small loaf of brown seeded bread. DC do not like either. I asked if there was any fruit was told no. DH asked if there was a bag of crisps, again no.

I’m not proud of this but DH and I went through the fridge and cupboards trying to find something to eat but the cupboards were literally bare.

DH went out this morning to buy some bread, cheese etc (which fil helped himself too) and I suggested to mil we go out to dinner but she insisted she is cooking. Dreading another tiny meal & the dc’s being hungry.

DH said they are just being tight by not spending money on food and drink. I quite frankly want to go home. Simple things like they knew we were coming but the bathroom had no towels or soap, no mirror or lamp in guest bedroom. Could they not have bought some cornflakes & snacks knowing most kids don’t eat muesli!

They have always been mean with money, poor DH as a uni student was penniless living off toast and pawning his stuff while his parents refused and financial assistance.

OP posts:
Graphista · 12/08/2018 23:52

"Graphista, I’m wondering how many people will read your post and know their granny and yours were peas in a pod" I used to think all grannies were like this, as I got older I learned it seems to be a culture/class thing. Mainly true of scots Irish grannies or if not then those from a poor background.

"For thr next 15 years until she passed, the woman had the same pot of mince on the stove, and was always trying to get you to eat it." Unfortunately this also rings slightly true - it took a fire for my mother to be told you need to clean the grill pan and chip pan apparently! She was so fastidious with all other cleaning I was shocked to learn she'd never cleaned the grill pan or chip pan unless we were moving! This was approx every 3-5 YEARS! Envy

DuggeesWoggle (some brilliant usernames on here mines boring) are your lot farmers by heritage? I've noticed they also tend to be "feeders".

MidniteScribbler I'm struggling to think of a part of the world where the culture generally ISN'T to welcome guests with provision of food and drinks. I've relatives that have travelled extensively inc parts of Africa and Asia that are extremely poor (went as part of charity/gap year programmes) where people give their own food for the week to visitors! Where on earth are you talking of? Exact preferred options perhaps not but certainly would attempt to provide things they recognise and are acceptable to THEIR culture.

I've relatives and friends living all over the world and I've lived outside the uk myself and I've loved learning the different traditions, trying different foods and drink (and if I could order certain foods and drinks to be delivered to uk from certain non uk supermarkets I definitely would there's loads I miss from Netherlands, Germany, Belgium etc) but providing sufficient to guests is generally speaking a worldwide etiquette. Plus I don't think basics like bread, cheese, fruit are exactly "fancy" nor is cornflakes or weetabix (generic versions are available) instead of muesli - which itself is not only fancy but rarely to the taste of children, many adults don't like it.

DoinItForTheKids - cheese on toast MUST be made with strong scottish cheddar on thick sliced white, and yes plenty of molten cheese that you have to wait a few mins for it to cool down a little sweet pickle to cool it down is nice too.

GreatDuck - my mother is generous but her plates are smaller than mine. She's had them over 30 years (and not one chip - how?? Especially with me and siblings using we're not known for our lack of clumsiness!) my side plates (modern sizing) are almost the size of her dinner plates. Plus myself and quite a few others have confirmed with similar experiences of our own so it's not that unusual clearly, but yes you often claim to 'not understand' or think posters are exaggerating. You seem to think only your experience counts. And not just regarding this issue either.

Good for you op. Going forward you and dh might find value in reading up on toxic families and fog (fear obligation & guilt).

Bluntness100 I don't think it's a bit much at all - to not even provide sufficient BASIC food to your DC and grandchildren is appalling behaviour ESPECIALLY when having benefited from their generosity on several occasions AND when the matter has been raised STILL not addressing the issue. Like pps, particularly with the info re when dh a student, I suspect this is a final straw moment. It's why I asked if dh was only child as I suspect he's the scapegoat.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe thank you

"There's some definite over thinking of the Subway comment going on here from some people" yes I read that as a lighthearted comment from dh :

Smiling dh "ok ok - I promise we'll get your favourite thing on way home"

Subways can be huge too - foot long? I've never had one would never manage it, but dd has been known to chomp through one after a swim. Plus there's tons of fillings (I love the veggie pattie, which I have 'toasted with cheese' with loads of salad inc olives but no onion and thousand island dressing )

MingeUterus excellent post re 'obesity argument'

I use my own toiletries due to allergies but I well remember visiting 'home' (dad was army - several weeks of 'holidays' for us were actually staying at grannies or aunties houses) and certainly my parents used the toiletries available at whoever's house we were visiting (and sometimes discovering new beloved products) and when they visited us vice versa. The only time this didn't happen was people were told not to use my stuff (hard to get, some prescribed due to the allergies) and same for my cousins stuff (same allergies different products used). But yea, I absolutely can't imagine my grannies or aunties being bothered by my mum - their dd/DIL/dsis/sil - using their shampoo!

As for the lack of soap/handwash and hand towels - as an OCD sufferer that would have had me scarpering! Would not want to stay in a house where they clearly don't wash their hands after using the toilet!! Envy

Re "what's cut and come back cake" traditionally a fruit cake but generally my understanding is any very moist cake that is fairly robust and keeps well without drying out - hence you can cut a few slices from it, leave it a day or even 2 and its still moist and tasty when you "come again". The joke with my grannies making such cakes though is they were lucky if a cake lasted 6 hours! As good bakers with big families their cakes were soon devoured! One granny got dementia and had carers coming in for a few tasks - they were coming in purportedly to care for her and she was sending them away with their dinner inc pudding! One of the issues we had with her is she'd get up in the middle of the night and head straight to the kitchen and start baking! At one point there was nigh on a gross of scones to get rid of!

MyImaginaryCatHasFleas - given the age of the DC I'd be surprised if the in laws were much older than me or may of those posting on thread! I'm 46, potentially old enough to have gc not that much younger, my parents in their 70's were alive during rationing but too young to remember it and my grandparents who would have remembered would be well into their 90's if alive - I think it highly unlikely that's the issue. More likely they're the age of some of my younger (parents both eldest of big catholic families) aunts and uncles. Who certainly don't remember rationing and cater generously for family gatherings.

From various comments it sounds like this isn't even how the in-laws eat when the op & family aren't there.

If the in laws regularly ate like this they would not be 'not thin' AND they wouldn't be capable of eating much more when it's at op's & dh's expense, AND wouldn't be sneak eating extras! My parents used to do the cruise thing too - I rather suspect these in-laws are the type they described as not only gorging at the buffets but hoarding food away in their cabins and 'sticking up' by secreting away food in luggage at the end! U agree with MingeUterus - it's the combination of info that's lead us and op to our conclusions of tightness.

Where I live (ironically Scotland) it is indeed very sparse as far as shopping goes. We've one supermarket, couple of convenience stores. Not that far from me there's the islands where the people don't even have that, they come over by ferry in 4x4's once a month to go to our supermarket (ferry alone is about 50 mins and then I think maybe 20 mins to supermarket?) and the other shops too (which are also rapidly disappearing) and they think of this small town as almost cosmopolitan in comparison! I've friends in the highlands who's nearest supermarket is over an hour away and not that big even. They've one small convenience store in the village. There are certainly parts of Wales and England like this too - I've either lived there myself or have friends who have (army bases tend not to be in city centres).

"He could easily have bought extra cheese, meat, yogurt, jam, cereal, biscuits" the kind of small convenience stores in very rural places rarely have large stocks of perishable goods, my local convenience place certainly doesn't sell meat, and the other perishables are usually sold out by mid morning even at weekends - these type of shops tend to know their market pretty well and only get enough in of perishables to meet their usual sales, perhaps a little more. Definitely little variety and usually heavily marked up top brands.

I'mNotasgreenas - food issues aside I come from a deeply dysfunctional family where stilted conversations, poor behaviour in other ways are definitely a thing. For those posters LUCKY enough not to come from such families OF COURSE it seems odd, and it isn't the norm for most but for a significant minority of us it's OUR norm (unfortunately). My ex found it extremely unsettling, he being from a relatively 'normal' family (all families have their quirks and peculiar ways of doing things - eg Christmas dinner has been mentioned on this thread, I've only been on mn a couple xmases, but I've noticed how heated it can get over relatively minor differences in how family's 'do' Xmas - what does Santa provide? Stockings only or big gifts too? When are presents opened? When is dinner served? Do you watch the queens speech? Go to church? - then of course when 2 adults who's family's did Xmas very differently get together who are BOTH sure THEIR family's way of doing Xmas is 'right' you get all sorts coming out!! My ex and I our first big argument was over Xmas plans. For me Xmas did not have happy memories - alcoholic father who ruined most of them, whereas my ex LOVED Xmas) as MummyofLittleDragon says it takes little in such families to damn near start wwiii those of us in them and especially scapegoats tend to have LEARNED it's better to keep head down and trap shut!

Why are people finding it so hard to believe that there ARE people who are tight fisted cf's? Certainly plenty of threads on here about them!

Kool4Katz "I don't think they had many friends" 😂 no I can't see that attitude and behaviour going down well AT ALL in the highlands!

"Mean with money, mean with love." Just what I was thinking.

Runbeer:
If any of the mum's in my family served those portions I would not be at all surprised to hear (particularly from the male members who all do manual/active jobs) "ok that was the appetiser what's for starters?" Or actually more likely "I'm not a bloody rabbit where's the real food?" (Usual comment for whenever salad served). I'm veggie - both grannies interpreted that as "must give Graphista double portions" I'm 5' 2" and was a size 6 at the time! Hardly a big eater!

From your latest update op I was initially sceptical of pps saying maybe they were deliberately trying to get across that you weren't welcome...now I'm not so sure. Utterly bizarre cold behaviour! Now I'm wondering if dh an only child and perhaps also unplanned? I would not be surprised if you were to discover these were people who never really wanted DC.

manicmij · 12/08/2018 23:59

Goodness, seems really mean to treat you all like that. Do a shop with as much stuff as you can manage that doesn't need to go in a fridge, just in case it disappears like the cheese!. Don't think I would be staying again and certainly would not allow DC to stay without being there too. Your DH has at least tried to get his parents to do something about lack of foid to no avail.

ilovelamp82 · 13/08/2018 00:20

How was your Subway?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

mathanxiety · 13/08/2018 00:24

What a horrible experience.
Glad you are leaving and I hope your Subway was everything you hoped it would be and then some.

How upsetting for you and DH, and embarrassing for him too. I think you are right to feel exasperated to the point of cutting contact with them. They took passive aggression to a new frontier. Have you had much contact with them up to now - you say this was your first time to visit them at home, so I am wondering if they have always been so anti-social with you, why no visits up to now on your part, and if you had any inkling that this was the sort of welcome they had in store for you?

I had a few experiences like this with exMIL as she grew older though there were always little lapses that showed a lack of consideration -
even in the early days of visiting she never had any toothpaste in the guest bathrooms. I learned to pack ours. She always had plenty of towels all the same.

Breakfast - she hated breakfast so nobody else ate any either. She made no concession to the fact that we had several small children. There was a big fry-up at weekends, with doughnuts, croissants, etc., if any siblings came for brunch, but other than that, nothing. I once found a packet of Frosted Flakes full of ants in her pantry while searching for anything the DCs could have. I would have made them French toast or pancakes or scrambled eggs, etc., if she had eggs, but she hated eggs and only bought half a dozen if she was baking.

Lunch - you could make sandwiches, but 1 lb of deli meat was supposed to last her and FIL and the seven of us for a week.

Dinner - she was a good cook and early on used to cook too much and then push it on people who tried to say no thanks but were never listened to. As the years went by portions decreased significantly. The ILs who lived nearby (all of exH's siblings and their families) used to go to MIL and FIL's for Sunday dinner every week and always used to hit McD's on the way home because she didn't seem to appreciate that teenagers need more food than three year olds.

We traveled nine hours by car for our visits and usually spent a few days there, so the food situation was more critical for us and we couldn't sneak out after dinner. exH used to go and buy BBQ at least one evening for us all under the guise of being gracious guests but he would never say anything about how hungry we all were.

One of our last visits was a miserable experience. We arrived about 8 pm, having had a much longer than usual trip due to long roadwork delays. We had had lunch on the road but hadn't stopped for dinner because we didn't want to be too late - they went to bed at 9. There wasn't even the makings of a sandwich for us when we arrived, even though we had phoned them as we drove to give a revised ETA. MIL had made dinner for herself and FIL and there were no leftovers. They mentioned a restaurant they liked, so after we had taken our bags out of the car off we went in search of food, only to find it had shut for the night. We ended up at Burger King.

FIL had a degenerative disease in his last years and MIL initially cared for him - she was hale and healthy and his condition wasn't too bad for several years. However, he began losing weight fast and his doctor couldn't figure out what the problem was. They went to the Mayo clinic and after investigation he and MIL were sent home, MIL with instructions to increase his caloric intake to the tune of at least 800 calories per day. His weight stabilised. She was literally starving him. All exH's siblings had guessed the cause of the weight loss, and laughed heartily to hear that MIL had been told to feed FIL more. But none of them would dare tell MIL what they guessed.

I strongly suspect she had some sort of eating disorder or at the very least, an unhealthy preoccupation with her weight and figure. She told me during one of our last conversations that she was the same weight then as she was when she got married.

PollyFlinderz · 13/08/2018 02:56

"Graphista, I’m wondering how many people will read your post and know their granny and yours were peas in a pod" I used to think all grannies were like this, as I got older I learned it seems to be a culture/class thing. Mainly true of scots Irish grannies or if not then those from a poor background

😂. Yes. Scots Irish working class.

PollyFlinderz · 13/08/2018 03:06

Tbh the most upsetting thing about it all is the complete disinterest mil and fil showed towards their grandchildren. Fil spent the whole time locked away in his study on his pc and mil sat in the lounge watched my tv. I suggested a few times about us all going out for walk, going to the local pub etc but they just weren’t interested

Was the disinterest a new thing?

What happens when they visit you, do they put off time with the children.

Was this the first time you’d stayed with them and if not why was it all such a shock to you?

Dillydallyer · 13/08/2018 03:26

Wow. Hrtft but they sound bonkers!! We got home last night from a four day visit to PIL. My MIL always asks for a shopping list of things we’ll need for the DC before we go. She also checks with us to see what meals we want. Any of us can use anything we want in the house, we don’t need to ask for a thing. I do take my own shampoo etc as I like my own but there’s always some available for if i haven’t.
Glad you’re home and have access to food, OP.

Graphista · 13/08/2018 03:44

Yes. Scots Irish working class.😂😂

We do seem to find each other! I'm an army brat so don't have a strong scots accent and yet at EVERY posting we seemed to quickly find the scots and/or Irish families! Similar outlooks I guess. One of my oldest dearest friends has the exact same background to me down to the part of Glasgow our parents are from - we met at school in the south west of England! Bonkers!

mathanxiety · 13/08/2018 03:53

YY to Scots/ Irish/ Scots-Irish..

I once ate three full roast dinners in a day when visiting friends and relatives in the country in Ireland. The third one I actually just pushed around my plate.

Graphista · 13/08/2018 04:24

OMG! I can so relate!

I had one day where I'd had a full glasgow fry "ye've a busy day ahead you'll need the energy" at my grans (mums mum) for breakfast.

Was supposed to just quickly get something from aunties where I was plied with tea and biscuits for elevenses "mum says ye've a busy day"

Was then given 3 courses for lunch (broth with LOTS of pearl barley, morning roll and butter, fried egg, chips and peas, fly cemetery for pudding) at my other grans "ye've come such a long way you must be starving"

Returned to gran 1 after dinner time so thought I'd escape - nope! "Your dinners in the oven hen, I know ye've had a hectic day probably not had chance to even get a drink" - Mac cheese, broccoli and mash 😭😭😭

I was feeling distinctly green at this point! Cousin popped by (and was instantly handed a mug of tea and half a pack of biscuits on a plate) he wanted to borrow a thing so I took the excuse to fetch it so I could claim my dinner was too cold to eat when we were done.

In the spare room telling him why I was looking and feeling nauseous - git laughed at me! 😂😂 "aye they say you'll not starve in our family - might feed you to death though!!"

I don't think it's a coincidence he and bro are both 6.5 foot bloody tall!!

My very English now ex husband was completely bemused by the basically constant feeding of him - he gained 6lbs the first week he visited with me! This was at a point when he was struggling to gain weight supposedly for a sport he competes in! His comment "sumo wrestlers eat less than they'd feed me!" I say very English - his gran on his mothers side (who sadly passed before he was born) was an Irish farmers daughter who went to England to basically avoid becoming a farmers wife with 20 kids! When he was telling his parents they were in fits laughing and both said simultaneously "that's what your gran would've been like".

It wasn't until then that I knew she was Irish, all I knew was she'd passed before he was born - so you don't push for more info do you?

But he'd been raised with fairly generous but very much English approach to how visitors/guests were treated - offering food/drink but only appropriate to the time of day and if the visitor/guest said no thanks the point wasn't pushed.

I've never watched father ted but I've seen clips of Mrs Doyle (?) and it's not as exaggerated as much as non scots/Irish might think!

There's an episode of vicar of dibley where out of politeness/social awkwardness/not wishing to offend she ends up having several Christmas dinners - I can TOTALLY see that happening in a scots/Irish family!

POPholditdown · 13/08/2018 04:37

Bit late to the thread, but I’m really confused about some posters taking issue with’promised a subway’. Someone mentioned financial abuse?? What on earth?

Mummyoflittledragon · 13/08/2018 06:10

Graphista
Good point about ops dh perhaps being an unwanted child. In that case it would be very much pil visiting their child and grandchildren in the same way as one would visit friends or a distant relative but not wanting the inconvenience of hosting them - especially children - in return. I know a single mother, who had a contraceptrative failure. Her aims in life are palming her child off and not working. She never plays with him, just sticks the tv on and he goes to nursery as much as possible. Idk what her childhood struggles were but this is very sad for her ds and for her.

math
I don’t think failing to give toothpaste is a sign of an inconsiderate host tbh but perhaps you feel too awkward to ask for some considering how she is with food and as for how you are expected to eat, that’s rubbish. My mother eats very differently from me. You can’t order some of the food she eats for delivery and being too ill to supermarket shop myself, my mother will bring some food for herself, we have the basics for her though such as stocking up on veg and cheese as well as buying her bread and her milk (we don’t drink milk). In return she doesn’t bother to buy my “funny food” for me when I visit and expects me to bring my own. The fact that this makes it even more difficult for me to go to see her escapes her as it’s more lugging and then cooking for dd and me. There have been lots of pa nasty comments about me never going to her house... I have chronic pain. Before I became really ill we used to visit regularly and I ended up plucking up the courage to say that if she wanted me to continue to visit I needed to sleep on a decent mattress and not the tired, malformed one, which resulted in me being in need of massage therapy - I have massages anyway but this was a very painful addition. I am gluten intolerant and not being able to metabolise other forms of protein well I need to eat meat, which she doesn’t eat - I have ME and have multiple food intolerances. It’s all very passive aggressive. She only recently even believed I was ill as I hadn’t shown her my private diagnosis and conspired against me with my brother and sil.

People can be so intolerant of others, their reality and their way of life. It’s so sad, which leads me back to Graphistas point. I was wanted.... at least my mother wanted a live girl doll. My mother “wanted a girl and then I got you” (me). I didn’t take that as compliment. So the other explanation is that perhaps the pil did want a child but a romanticised version and not the reality of a living, breathing, free thinking child. I sure had a romanticised version of parenting but the difference is that I enjoy discovering who my child is and seeing how fabulous she is in so many ways.

GreatDuckCookery6211 · 13/08/2018 06:33

OP have you said what PILs have been like in the past with food when you've visited? A few people have asked you.

I am flummoxed why you didn't say anything. You've been annoyed by many things while you have been there but said very little to PILs. I don't get it.

You seem very resentful of your PILs disinterest in your children. How often do you see them? Have they ever shown an interest in them?

AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight · 13/08/2018 06:46

Graphista (loving your posts!), what's fly cemetery?

mathanxiety · 13/08/2018 07:40

I looked for toothpaste everywhere - there was a single tube of it, in exMIL's bathroom. She clearly felt it wasn't up to her to provide it for guests (in any of the other five bathrooms). I thought using hers would be horrible, so I made a mental note to bring our own in future, and we all used some purloined baking soda that time.

I wouldn't have asked because I didn't like to potentially embarrass her (or have her hold it against me in perpetuity that I had the temerity to ask for toothpaste on top of putting us all up).

It's all i the past now anyway - I haven't seen or heard from MIL since divorcing. I packed toothpaste and snacks for the DCs when they visited with exH though.

SimonBridges · 13/08/2018 07:47

I wouldn’t provide toothpaste for guests either. That is the kind of thing guests bring, surely.

OliviaStabler · 13/08/2018 08:02

I would never provide toothpaste for guests. That's the type of thing they would bring themselves in their wash bag.

Gwenhwyfar · 13/08/2018 08:06

Of course people should bring their own toothpaste. What is a wash bag for unless to bring things like that?
On the other hand, I don't see the problem with using some of your host's either. It's not particularly personal.

PollyFlinderz · 13/08/2018 08:13

I always lay out toiletries in the bathrooms for anyone to use but most people like using their own things so Im not bothered if my stuff remains unopened. And I always travel with my own but sometimes I'll use the stuff provided if I think it looks interesting and something I might like to change over to at home.

MrsAidanTurner · 13/08/2018 08:17

You sod off great duck. You clearly have no idea, experience or empathy to understand these situations and you troll hunt women in distress, coming here for support because... That's what mn is for... And you don't offer any good advice, you never ever offer a good alternative view.

So why do you do it? Why do you come onto very in law thread and ridicule the op??

Bowlofbabelfish · 13/08/2018 08:19

You can’t share toothpaste! The brush you have is swarming with your own oral bacteria and it contacts the paste in the tube and some is drawn back in. Nonononono. 😱

I just lay out towels and tell people to help themselves to shower gel and shampoo/conditioner which lives in the showers.

Any cosmetics etc that can be contaminated (tubs of moisturiser that you apply with fingers for example) are single user!

Gwenhwyfar · 13/08/2018 08:21

"Even when you stay in a hotel or b&b towels, hand wash and little bottles of shampoo are provided."

Not in the cheaper ones actually. And a house is not a hotel.
I do try to provide towels for guests, although I once had to go to the shop with my guest to buy one because I didn't have spare ones. I've been to cheap hotels where I've had to take my own and I always take my own toiletries because you don't know what will be provided.
As I've said before, I don't get the mirror thing at all if there is one in the bathroom, but then I have been called a terrible host for having 'synthetic bedsheets' and no bedside lamp.

GreatDuckCookery6211 · 13/08/2018 08:23

And you don't offer any good advice, you never ever offer a good alternative view.

Really. What ever? Or just the threads where you've seen me not agreeing with the masses? Take a look at my posts a bit more carefully. There's plenty where I've supported the OP.

Gwenhwyfar · 13/08/2018 08:24

"You can’t share toothpaste! The brush you have is swarming with your own oral bacteria and it contacts the paste in the tube and some is drawn back in."

No, your toothpaste tub doesn't touch the brush. (or shouldn't anyway)

MrsAidanTurner · 13/08/2018 08:44

You come onto in law threads not to offer help though you come onto ridicule. Very very rarely do you say kind things.

These are women in distress caught in awful situations, many marriages have failed due to in laws, many people have had to shore up thier marriages, their happy wondeful marriages purely due to toxic over bearing controlling nasty in laws.

You come at every in law thread as incredulous disbelieving and not helpful.

Look at this thread... One son, only grandchildren, you have attacked her for not mentioning the lack of food then you got really hot under the collar when she asked for something to go on toast, so op can't win can she? You wanted her to ask her but when she asks for spreads, eggs etc you say.. Why is she doing that.

Real people are at the other side of these words.. Thankfully the majority of posters either give very good advice, sympathy... Lighten it up with humour, or give a really good alternative view... Eg many posters have said it could be generational etc...

I dread having to post again for support in my own awful in laws and you will sully my thread... And be nasty and unhelpful. One tries to ignore but when you seem to be drawn to very in law thread it gets too much. (you and the other usual incredulous disbelieving suspects)