My daughter is transgender- ask me anything

[EvelynTent]

Please be kind!

Totally agree with every word of this.

My gender non - conforming autistic daughter says she is asexual. She's 14 FFS. She's immature and struggles to make good friendships BECAUSE of her autism and its impact on her social interactions.

CAMHS asked her if she sees herself as a girl at their pathway appointment. Luckily she said yes, she's largely been shielded from this ideology because she is home educated, but I was pretty furious that they saw fit to ask her that. She was there because she has an eating disorder and needed signposting for that, not because she prefers non stereotypical clothing!

In our area many autistic girls are non - binary or trans boys. It's almost as if if mental health services can say it's a gender issue and affirming that will take away your problems, reduces the waiting lists, or maybe I'm just cynical.

A proportion of these autistic girls will then go onto have radical surgeries or take cross sex hormones to present as non-binary or as a trans man. This affects their fertility. To me this is awful. Autistic girls have the right to live happy fulfilled lives as autistic women, it doesn't matter what stereotypes they follow or don't follow, this is akin to eugenics to me. Making these decisions as young adults when you are vulnerable and the brain is not fully formed is horrific. Our girls should be encouraged to love themselves as they are not to aim for something unachievable.

I am sorry it upsets parents of trans identifying individuals to point out that this is problematic. The 4000% increase in girls identifying as trans is hugely alarming. I like @IdleAnimations have never done feminine stereotypes and I had children fairly late. It's funny how few of us middle aged gender non - conformers are saying we are men. I suspect it's because we know that it is our sex that causes sexism and that identifying as male won't get rid of the sexism we face.

And there is a suggestion sometimes and it's been touched on in this thread that these YP would harm themselves if they did not transition. Given that no one can actually change sex a kind and tolerant society would say you can wear what you want and let us help you with your mental health struggles with appropriate therapy. Unfortunately this is what the TRAs call 'conversion therapy'. They don't want your children to be helped and then if they detransition later on they are disowned and told they were never 'really trans' and the like. These children are being used as props.

And through this thread women are to blame for this because we won't stfu about the impact on YP and the harms to them. And we won't stfu about the impact on women's rights.

It was Helen Joyce who spoke about the issues for trans parents. I'll leave this here -

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/07/19/helen_joyce_the_parents_of_trans_children_will_not_be_able_to_move_on.html

Your child says that their body doesn't fit the way that their brain feels. What would your course of action be if your child was anorexic?

Actually here is a transcript of Helen Joyce on trans parents in case people don't want to click the link. This is important.

HELEN JOYCE: Something you may not have thought of is that there are a lot of people who can't move on from this. And that's the people who have transitioned their own children. So those people are going to be like the Japanese soldiers who were on Pacific islands and didn't know the war was over. They've got to fight forever. This is another reason why this is the worst, worst, worst social contagion that we'll ever have experienced.

A lot of people have done what is the worst thing you could do, which is to harm their children irrevocably, because of it. Those people will have to believe that they did the right thing for the rest of their lives, for their own sanity, and for their own self-respect. So they'll still be fighting, and each one of those people destroys entire organizations and entire friendship groups.

Like, I've lost count of the number of times that somebody has said to me of a specific organization that has been turned upside down on this, "Oh, the deputy director has a trans child." Or, oh, the journalist on that paper who does special investigations has a trans child. Or whatever. The entire organization gets paralyzed by that one person. And it may not even be widely known at that organization that they have a trans child. But it will come out, people will have sort of said quietly, and now you can' talk truth in front of that person, and you know you can't, because what you're saying is: "You as a parent have done a truly, like, a human rights abuse level of awful thing to your own child that can not be fixed."

There are specific individuals who are actively against women's rights here and it is not known why they are, but I happen to know through the back channels, that it is because they've transed their child.

So those people will do anything for the entire rest of their lives to destroy me and people like me because people like me are standing in reproach to them. I don't want to be, I'm not talking directly to them, and I don't spend my time bitching to them.

But the fact is that just simply by saying we will never accept natal males in women's spaces, well it is their son that we're talking about. And they've told their son that he can get himself sterilized and destroy his own basic sexual function and women will accept him as a woman. And if we don't, there's no way back for them and that child.

They've sold their child a bill of goods that they can't deliver on.

And I'm the one that has to be bullied to try to force me to deliver on it.

So those people are going to be the people who will keep this bloody movement going, I'm sorry to say, because they've everything to lose, and it is a fight to the death as far as they are concerned.

I have a close friend going through that exact situation. They're having counselling and treatment, it's not going well and I feel for them so much. It's not the same condition, but inasmuch as I sought counselling and psychiatric input I think my course of action would probably have been the same

I've read Helen Joyce's book. I can see how that could apply to people- especially if they had moved ahead with medical intervention when they were under 18 and it was ultimately a parental decision. I wouldn't have allowed it before 18 and would no doubt have had to manage a lot of resentment from my daughter. Fortunately, that wasn't our situation

They worked out well because when I went through many an identity crisis due to not fitting in, my Mother was honest with me and sought out mental health help. Not trying to be cruel to you- but it is what it is.

I, like many ‘gender non conforming’ women and/or elder neurodiverse women are against this ideology because for one thing - we know full well that we’d have been transitioned as young people. When in reality, most transition issues desist with puberty and/or appropriate mental health help (not affirmation only).

There’s a reason the Cass review highlighted that most with gender issues at the Tavistock had internalised homophobia or neurodiversity and transition didn’t decrease depression or suicidal ideation.

What do you suppose happens when a vulnerable young autistic person turns 18 which makes them capable of making good life changing decisions which they were incapable of making at 17?

I find it astonishing that you don't see that your son is as vulnerable at 18 as he was at 17. All 18 year old's have underdeveloped brains. 18 year old autistic YP are even more vulnerable because they are neurodiverse.

Yes she was vulnerable but we 18 she was legally an adult. I did my best to get unbiased, expert help, discussed my reservations and and then continued to love and support her as she made her own decision. You are astonished that she made a decision you would have regretted but it was her decision not mine and several years on it seems to be the right one for her. Your mother perhaps knew you very well and sensed what was right for you - I think I've done the same. You and my child are different people- although I do value your perspective.

I genuinely hope it works out well and they don’t end up regretting their decision. I understand it’s hard for parents now as the trans ideology often works on guilt and separation from family if you don’t affirm without question.

However; there needs to be honesty. Your transitioned child is still not welcome in female spaces. They will be entering them only because women are under duress to accept their presence as women often end up having to do for the male sex and their wants. There may be a few women on their knees desperate to be kind, but most of us don’t and will never see your son as a woman. He is part of a colonisation of something women worked hard for. He is the newest form of the patriarchy in lipstick.

Best wishes.

edit: I know I’ve gone from they to he pronouns. It’s because towards the end I got annoyed having to filter my own language to explain reality. I know this will offend but I am equally offended so report away.

I think this is in response to my question about anorexia.

Are you saying your course of action would have been to accept the body dysmorphia associated with anorexia, and allow your son to take whatever action he felt was necessary, including taking harmful drugs, to make his body match his mind?

No I meant that I think I'd have sought specialist advice

I agree. How tragically short-sighted.

Gen Z culture says that someone's statement that they don't want to have children is always final, whether they're 14 or 40, and to question it is disrespectful. But OPs mom should know better how late people can come to realize they want kids and how dependent this desire often is on being in a stable relationship.

The saddest part of this is that the OPs child didn't even say he didn't want to find love. He said he thought it wasn't possible. And OP's mom just let him go along with sterilizing himself as if it were a lost cause and it wouldn't potentially rob him of one of the greatest joys couples share.

@JustCollateralDamage

I appreciate that your post above was an opinion and not a question for me and I will probably kick myself for getting involved again, but I just wanted to respond with a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, my child was and adult when she told me she is transgender so I wasn't in a position to prevent her doing anything without, effectively, disowning her. That is something that, to me, would be unforgivable as a parent (others may differ, I understand that) Even if I had taken that course, she's an adult and has access to some savings of her own and would probably go ahead. So my experience is different from that of people who are making decisions on their children's behalf.

Regarding fertility and sexuality- obviously we are all individuals and bring our own set of experiences and beliefs to everything we do. I didn't want children when I was young, I changed my mind and went through years of fertility struggles because I'd left it late - I had to deal with the consequences of decisions taken when I was a young adult, that's life. I don't think that will happen to my child who I know very well - but if it does then I will do my best to support her through it.

We did discuss all of these issues,there was specialist counselling and a thorough psychiatric assessment. I helped set these up but wasn't part of them due to patient confidentiality- but I know it was challenging because they came at it from the angle of wanting to find reasons not to proceed before going ahead with medical treatment that has lifelong effects.

The concerns around women's rights and safety, social contagion and premature intervention for children are all valid but transgender people and those that love them are as individual as everyone else. Some (perhaps many) TRAs are intimidating, extreme and despicable but they are the activists. People like me and my child are just humans trying to live our lives and get on with our neighbours.

You're right. She's an adult and you have limited power as her mother.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh in my judgement, but this is a situation that touches me deeply.

My younger brother is a trans woman and came out at two years ago at 19. By the time he told me, his fertility had already been compromised and it was clear he had given the situation very little thought. I got the sense he really didn't have capacity to foresee what an important consideration it was (DUH, he was 19). If I had been there as he was making those decisions I would have worked so hard to get him to understand what he was giving up. Which is why your seemingly laissez-faire approach when there was a viable, non-invasive alternative that wouldn't disrupt transition at all is so heart-breaking for me.

But I completely empathize with you on this: * *

I wasn't in a position to prevent her doing anything without, effectively, disowning her. That is something that, to me, would be unforgivable as a parent (others may differ, I understand that)

I've seen the other side of this and I agree with you, it's unforgivable. My dad voluntarily cut my brother off immediately after he came out, rather than witness his son "go crazy" and "throw his life away". He hasn't seen her in the two years since coming out, and his decision has shattered my respect for him.

But given that you mention your child has savings of her own... I think it would be more apt to say that the real reason you weren't in a position to prevent her doing anything was because she could effectively disown you. Dissent isn't an option. Disownment is a staple of the Gen Z trans community diet and a constant threat for every parent with a trans young adult child. I'm sure you feel that threat too.

This happened to my mother, who played along with my brother's transgender revelation a while, paid for his care without question, tried to understand his reasoning and even bought him some girly things... Unfortunately, her underlying doubt revealed itself in these conversations (she remained unconvinced that he had been properly medically evaluated) and this made him feel insecure and unaffirmed. He sent mom a text saying he wanted to go "no contact" with her for his mental health.

Everyone is clearly worse off for this outcome; you're right to avoid it at all costs.

As imperfect as it is, and for all the criticism you'll face, I commend you for understanding the value of your presence in your adult child's life, even with its diminished influence.

@JustCollateralDamage
Thanks for that - I'm so sorry to hear about the rift in your family, it must be so painful for you all. I wish you all the best.

@JustCollateralDamage

Sorry to come on again, but I've found myself playing your post over in my mind. Before my daughter came out, I was quite anti-trans (I still have a lot of views my wokey siblings find transphobic on things regarding women's rights and medical treatment for children). That was the main reason she waited until 18 to talk to me about it, suffering a lot of anxiety and even making a suicide attempt in the process. We were trying everything to help her but without understanding the real issue all because of my vocal and intolerant attitude-I bitterly regret that now, even though it spared me the difficulty of having to manage it while she was under age.

When she did come out, I hoped the process we went through with expert help would end with her deciding not to go ahead. That's not what happened and that was a challenge for me - we'd gone to people who knew what they were doing and I had to have the humility to admit that I might be wrong.

What may have come across in my posts as laissez faire is really acceptance. And, having accepted it, I've been able to admit to myself that my daughter did know what was right for her and is happier and healthier now than she has ever been since she was about five or six. It does bring a lot of hostility, which is painful but I'm at peace and am able to be happy that she's happy.

There are theories about what's behind gender dysphoria but nobody knows for sure and I won't ever understand it. Also, just because it's real and genuine for my child doesn't necessarily mean it is for everyone and it's vital to have unbiased experts without a pro or anti trans agenda to help. I'm sorry this doesn't seem to have been the case for your brother. Whether he's right or wrong about the decisions he's making now, I hope your parents can make their own peace with it. I understand how hard it is.

I just wanted to say thank you for your post. You have gone through a lot. You have conducted yourself very well, despite the judgement towards yourself and your (clearly vulnerable) child. I hope you don’t take any of these comments to heart. Some people on mumsnet seem to forget that most trans people are incredibly vulnerable and that when you have a child you would do anything to protect them. There is no ‘cure’ for being trans. So some of these comments are a little unhelpful. 🙄 Your child was an adult when she decided. All you have done is support them. It’s not like you pushed her into it because he/she liked dolls (which is what mumsnetters seem to assume is the case).

There is no evidence that trans people are any more likely to attack anyone, so these posts about her being a sexual predator are quite upsetting tbh. But as we know, gay people had this for centuries when they wanted to use bathrooms. And like you said, with your daughter, she looks and acts like a woman! Who dares to go around checking someone’s pants? Hopefully this will become easier with time.

And that’s because you are facing the reality. You’ve done nothing wrong. I hope you find peace with the situation and you and your family (including your child) have many good times to come.

@Newsenmum
How kind of you, thanks so much!

And like you said, with your daughter, she looks and acts like a woman!

How do you act like a woman? Curious if me and my daughter are doing it right.

There is no evidence that trans people are any more likely to attack anyone, so these posts about her being a sexual predator are quite upsetting tbh.

But there is evidence @Newsenmum.

Ministry of Justice figures show the percentage of trans people convicted of sex based crimes is quite a lot higher than the percentage of men, and much higher than the percentage of women, convicted of these crimes. So the likelihood does seem to be higher.

However, the majority of trans people are not like this and are not a danger to anyone. But one of the issues in toilets etc is that women can't know which TW are a danger and which are not. They present as threatening irrespective of their intent. As men in general can do.

@VocalFryUp

I take your point that it's difficult to define and gender perceptions are largely dictated by social norms that nobody is obliged to adhere to. I can outline some of the changes I've seen in my child. In terms of her looks, there are some of the superficial and stereotypical changes - she's changed her hairstyle and wears things like crocodile clips to hold it back for example. Breasts are an obvious feminine thing too.

The bigger difference is how how she moves and holds herself, her body language has changed gradually but significantly. It's hard to put into
words exactly what these changes are but having known her so well for so long, it's definitely struck me. I've noticed that this - together with her voice - seems to be the thing that has the difference with people starting to assume that she's female when they meet her for the first time.

Clothes - At first, she started to dress in a bit of a stereotypical way. She had no experience of what would suit her and was too scared of causing offence to try anything on - even in gender neutral changing rooms. As time's gone on and her confidence is growing she's actually gone back to more gender-neutral stuff- hoodies and so on - just wearing what she finds comfortable.

In terms of behaviour - like you, I couldn't really say what acting like a woman is. She's less isolated and withdrawn, far more happy in her own skin, but I think that's all down to being happier and feeling better.

Has your child had vocal therapy?

@SabrinaThwaite
Yes, she did a little bit, using some apps she found and had one session with a voice coach. I can't really hear a huge difference but that might be because the change was gradual and I'm talking to her constantly. I think her intonation and expression has changed more than her actual voice.

Oh please, no one has said that OPs adult child is a sexual predator.

We have spoken about the impact of the ideology that OP and her male adult child follow which runs roughshod on women's rights.

There is plenty of evidence that trans identifying males are at least as likely as other males to have male pattern sexual offending patterns.

So please stop trying to gaslight women.

Finally this is nothing like gay rights. Gay people were not imposing themselves on the rights of others. Not to mention the fact that trans ideology has a basis in homophobia.