I'm a born-again christian single parent - AMA

[midwifeinthemaking]

Just that really - would love to answer any questions, dispel myths etc.

There is a spiritual battle going on and it’s interesting to see that people like to blame God, the force for good and not the enemy, who wants nothing more than for people not to believe and instead puts a spoke in the wheel by using the cult of the self and the false freedoms that it can offer. If anyone thinks evil doesn’t exist, we have the Holocaust, numerous atrocities throughout history carried out by individuals, groups, corporations etc. I firmly believe we see but a small part of the picture and only that which we are capable of understanding. God has the full picture, the whys and the wherefores as well as the timescale, He knows how x will bring about y and result in z in order that His plan is fulfilled.

@pantherrose, I don't understand how end of that section goes with the beginning. If God has planned absolutely everything and is omnipotent, how come "the enemy" is getting away with all that evil? If that is part of God's plan, how come God isn't evil? To say nothing of the fact that most Christians tell us that evil acts such as the Holocaust carried out by people are proof of free will, and are not evidence either that God doesn't exist or that, if he does, he's either very nasty or anything but omnipotent.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]**@ZenNudist

But as I asked above (and this isn't goady, I'm genuinely asking how this tallies with your belief - Do you genuinely not think though that countless parents throughout history who have been atheist, have begged and begged for god to show himself if he exists by curing their ill children?

They genuinely want that to happen. They want to believe. They pray and pray and say they would believe and spread gods word if he shows himself to them by easing their pain.

So why doesn't the 'prayer dare' work for them?

See also victims of abuse, rape, assault trying to get over trauma by sobbing and begging god to please show he is real and loving and help them believe in him by showing himself. He seemingly doesn't often choose to answer those calls. Why?

The parents I mentioned will have been asking with their heart, repeatedly, genuinely, wholeheartedly, with an open heart and mind. Why did god choose not to respond them? I'm not even saying via a cure for their sick child, but even via a feeling he would take care of the child should they pass etc? Why ignore them?[/quote]
@ZenNudist Thanks for coming back to the thread - I asked this above and would genuinely be interested in your response re the prayer dare so I can understand your point of view better as I know many Christians who say similar.

@youvegottenminuteslynn. Its really difficult to judge tone on mumsnet so i will caveat: I am still seeking answers myself. Im not evangelical so "the prayer dare" doesn't sit well with me. I know how I journeyed from atheist to believer but know my journey is my own.

Evidently, prayer doesn't usually work like a vending machine. There are countless believers praying for things that dont happen. Prayer isnt effective because someone prays and then gets what they want. Prayer works because it changes you. Christians think of it as developing a relationship with God.

My reference to the Lord's prayer is that Christianity acknowledges that our ways are not God's ways and we dont expect a life free from pain. Jesus prayed to God for help in his hour of need "Not my will but Thy will be done" and that's another of my favourite prayers. Whenever I ask things from God I acknowledge that there might be bigger things at stake.

Which is not to say anyone of faith thinks bad things come from God and glibly dismisses the worst the world can throw at us as "God's plan". The opposite: all good comes from God and I hope that evil can one day be overcome to get to a world without suffering.

So I'm trying to say that bad things happening doesn't make me blame God. Unanswered prayers (to me) dont mean that God doesn't care. It would be a feeble faith that crumbled as soon as it was tested.

It's helped me as a Christian to think about this more and think about how suffering (and resurrection) are central to our faith.

It's helped me as a Christian to think about this more and think about how suffering (and resurrection) are central to our faith.

But you can see, surely, how unattractively passive or actively masochistic this looks to many of the rest of us? I grew up entirely with this 'Offer up your suffering'/life is a vale of tears so only expect happiness in the next/ 'No Cross, No Crown' attitude as a reflex, and I found it enormously liberating to realise that, no, this life isn't some kind of vale of suffering or divine test to be trudged through to get to an eternal reward. This is all there is. There are things we can control and things we can't. but there's no one in the sky testing us as God tested Job (in one of the most sadistic passages in the OT) to see if our faith 'crumbles.'

If life has taught me anything is that suffering doesn't make us stronger, it makes us exhausted.

So I'm trying to say that bad things happening doesn't make me blame God.

Atheists don't blame god for bad things happening and aren't angry with him for bad things happening. They don't believe in him. They use the 'bad things happening' as an example to show how the logic of a kind and loving god simply doesn't stack up.

That's what faith is - believing something without proof of it. I wish more Christians would say yeah it doesn't make sense and it's not logical but I hope it's true, rather than quoting selected passages from the Bible as evidence when I think even the most ardent christian would see that the Bible isn't exactly an unbiased, peer reviewed paper!

I think it's a common misconception amongst people of faith (I'm not singling you out, I'm saying in general) that non believers are angry / bitter / closed off / jaded etc.

I don't believe in god so I don't hate him. Because there is no him, to me.

I do hate people being told to pray for salvation but also being told they have prayed wrong / inauthentically / not hard enough and that's why their suffering continues.

I hate the way that some religions tell the starving masses to be grateful and pray while they live in richness. I've been to the Vatican. I found it so upsetting being surrounded by gold and riches knowing how many Catholics around the world live in poverty. If their god was real, and the pope's role is to communicate god's love to the people, wouldn't the pope sell huge amounts of those riches and set up access to water, education and hygiene in developing countries? The Catholic Church does some charity, yes, but with the riches in the Vatican they could transform countries. They don't.

And I personally find it hugely liberating not to believe in god or have a religion. I do nice things and kind things because I want to be nice and kind to people, not because I want a reward from god or am scared of punishment from god.

My mum is religious and she's bloody lovely. She isn't judgemental and she doesn't tell people they need to pray when she knows they aren't believers, because she respects their beliefs. She is genuinely lovely. Her faith brings her peace and I think that's great. She herself is willing to say that much of her faith doesn't make sense logically, but that's just what it is - faith. Not proof, not evidence.

That's what faith is - believing something without proof of it. I wish more Christians would say yeah it doesn't make sense and it's not logical but I hope it's true, rather than quoting selected passages from the Bible as evidence when I think even the most ardent christian would see that the Bible isn't exactly an unbiased, peer reviewed paper!

Yes exactly! It simply isn't possible to prove God's existence by quoting passages of the bible, putting forward theological arguments or sharing personal experiences. There is no evidence, it's all about faith. I don't understand why that is so difficult for many Christians to grasp.

And also yy to the fact that non-believers don't feel angry or abandoned by God, because they simply don't believe he exists in the first place! They may sometimes feel anger towards the people who do things in God's name, but that is different. If you genuinely don't believe that there is a God, then you really won't be blaming him for anything!

Thank you everyone, it has been a privilege to share in your thoughts and views the last few days and has given me lots of food for thought. Thank you for the time you’ve taken in your replies, and the difficult things you’ve shared. I hope you stay well and safe in these uncertain times, I wish you well with all my heart ❤️

May peace and joy surround you,
And may sunshine light your way.
May music sound around you.
May laughter fill your day.

💐

I wish you well also @Jellyfishnchips. For all that I disagree with you, I am genuinely glad for you that you have found peace and comfort in your faith.

Thank you AlexaShutUp, really appreciate that. Even when views are poles apart, there can still be honour, love and friendship 💐

Do you think divorce is always a sin?

When you're a midwife, will you judge patients who have babies out of wedlock? Or within a same sex marriage?

Postprandial I was answering the question from youvegottenminuteslynn when asked about suffering. I don't personally spend time thinking life is a vale of tears. Although there are undoubtedly a lot of bad things in the world. There was a lot of focus on all the awfulness of life upthread. I was asked to explain that from a religious perspective. The short answer being "no one knows". Since reverting to Christianity it's given me a new found appreciation for the world. I don't think God is testing me (or anyone). But that's just my belief.

They use the 'bad things happening' as an example to show how the logic of a kind and loving god simply doesn't stack up.

I see this as boiling Faith in God down to a reductive view then saying that it's a logical test and proof there is no God. We would hopefully all agree there is a lot we don't understand about life the universe and everything so you're trying to argue logically but only have a small part of the picture.

This thread shows: believers and non believers hold a wide variety of views and trying to hold up one Christian as representative of an entire belief system is as useless as trying to hold up one atheist to speak for all atheists.

Non-believers make up the largest part of my friends and family. I'd say the main attitude is one of (usually respectful) indifference and/or some discomfort around religion generally. So its only on mumsnet that I find non-believers railing at the awfulness of a God they dont believe in. Which is how it comes across. It might start off in the logical argument but some posters take it personally (with good reason maybe, but it seems to come from misapprehension of God/Religion.)

It's good the thread seems to be wrapping up. I'm pretty sure it's served to crystalise each in their own viewpoints.

Do you believe in heaven and hell?

I consider myself Christian ( grew up catholic) but I don't believe in an afterlife good or bad .

@chalktheblockwithglitterchalk

Do you believe in heaven and hell?

I consider myself Christian ( grew up catholic) but I don't believe in an afterlife good or bad .

Ah sorry op, reading a bit more of your thread I can see that you do