I'm a born-again christian single parent - AMA

[midwifeinthemaking]

Just that really - would love to answer any questions, dispel myths etc.

(also you use the idea of "you didn't die, so God saved you." What about those who do manage to kill themselves? How do you explain that?)

Hi Alexa, yep got a couple of hours, thank you! Just popping out so sorry this reply will be briefer. So yeah I think if had there been a way to by-pass the immense suffering and death of his son, he would have pardoned us directly. But if he did, there would be no accountability or justice for wrong doing, as we could as do as we pleased and maim and slaughter for instance and then just be automatically forgiven. So it wouldn’t matter how we treat each other and ourselves, but the bible teaches that human beings are of immeasurable valuable and worth. We are meant to love eachother and are not meant to cruelly abuse eachother - we can see and test this with our rational minds and know it is wrong when abuses (or worse) occur. We observe it is true. And the logical extension of by-passing Jesus and going for a direct pardon would be everyone just gets in to heaven automatically, psycho killers, Hitler and other dictators, child abusers etc without need of repentance (ie to be sorry for and turn away from their evil). The crazy thing is even if these people, as extreme they are in their evil, repented and accepted Jesus than the bible tells us their slate would be wiped clean. Even all that sin. Just like it is for you or me. But none of us are without sin, as good as people can be as it is just impossible to live a holy life.

Again about Jesus and justice - the punishment was paid on the cross. No one got off scott free, justice requires penalty. Salvation is available because the punishment was paid in full. Jesus can be compared to an advocate - like the Jewish High priest in Jerusalem who stood for the people on the Day of Atonement to make the sacrifice which covered all the people’s sins. Jesus is both high priest and sacrifice. The bible describes this as a ‘once and for all time’ sacrifice, it was enough. Jesus last words as he died was ‘It is finished’, and the cross forever stands as a completed work. Try to relate if you were the murderer in the docks and you needed an advocate.

@Jellyfishnchips

Hi AlexShutUp, sorry I wanted to reply back quicker but has been busy day. So to answer some of the points raised, all very good points. I don’t believe that good things can only come from god, because of course we enjoy lots of good things in life and can do great good to others etc. Just that god IS these good things, because they are his nature and the expression of his person all wrapped up together, so heaven is all these good things because it is who he is. There are many bible verses that show gods nature (also what heaven is like) my favourites include, 1 John 4:7 - 21 “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from god, and whoever loves has been born of god and knows god. Anyone who does not love does not know god, because god IS love”, and 1 John 1:5 “ This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light and in him there is no darkness at all”.

Re: children suffering, so firstly I don’t think free will equates to bad choices in my mind. It equates to both good choices and bad, but we don’t need to debate the effects of good choices as these don’t have harmful affect. As I understand it, the exercise of free will doesn’t cause children to suffer and die directly, not all human choices are bad ones, we can be loving and do all manner of wonderful things, but the truth is that evil and corruption is rife all around us and we see it in people’s attitudes, words, actions, communities, governments. Just watch the news - scams, murders, child abuse and injustices are constantly with us. So it is more to do with that we are living in a fallen world and the suffering and death (including innocents) is a consequence of sin. This is why god hates sin, because it produces death. Ultimately, eternal separation. God is very active and cares a great deal about our suffering, but he cannot prevent people making bad and damaging choices which harm themselves and others. We are living with the consequences of the whole of human history exercising free will. I heard it once said that with an outstretched hand we can lift someone up or close our fist and hurt them - the choice is ours, help or hurt, love or hate. I have also searched out and grappled with these issues as the extent of human suffering is beyond awful, innocent kids suffering (and people of all ages actually) why don’t you just turn up in person god and undo all the horror(!). What I learnt is this, god did turn up and do something, and something none of us could do as parents which is give up his child to suffer and die for us. Jesus chose to die and take our place so we could have life. It has been eloquently described as the ‘Divine exchange’.

Regarding the choice to be Christian or not you are absolutely right, it is not a choice if you don’t believe it, there is no point and I certainly wouldn’t advocate lying. Everyone is free to believe as they wish. I would like to make the distinction between following Jesus and following a religion, as they are different things. I don’t consider myself religious, but follow Jesus and have a personal walk with him and believe the bible. You don’t have to be a Christian to have a view on Jesus though - everyone does, Christian or not! It comes down to who do you believe him to be. That is the choice. Before he was crucified, Jesus asked his disciples ‘Who do you say that I am?’. According to the bible there will be Judgement after this life for individuals and nations and Jesus will be Judge. So when we stand before him that day, we will be asked the question, ‘Who did you say that I was?’. I feel it will come down to how we answer this, and not what we call ourselves, or label ourselves, whatever religion or secular life we’ve led, our sexuality etc but what you have believed in your heart.

People really struggle with the concept of a loving god as Judge. I did, and especially as a new Christian. It is a difficult one to get to grips with. But without judgement there is no justice. Our sense for a need for justice when crimes are committed is deeply ingrained, if someone is murdered or brutalised the cry goes up for justice and it is the same in heaven. It’s why the bible is full of teaching on how we should treat others rightfully, as every person has great worth and value. There is a way to describe it: There is a high court case and the criminal is standing in the docks, the evidence against him is indisputable, he is found guilty. The judge loves the man, he is his friend, but he is Judge and must pass the just sentence. So the gavel comes down. But then the Judge takes off his wig, steps down from his judgement seat and walks over the to the man he loves. He stands in his place in the docks and says ‘I will take his punishment’.

God is vengeful against sin in that he hates the wrongs that have been done to you, to me, and all people (and to the world; animals, environment etc). But he does not want to see us suffer for our mistakes or punish us for them, he bore them all on the cross so we don’t have to. He stepped down and stood in the docks for us. Our choice is simple, we have all done things wrong and made mistakes, will we take the sentence ourselves or get a ‘stand in’? In the bible Jesus is described as ‘heavens spotless lamb’. Other religions offer many different views and great morality, but Jesus is unique in that there is no other who offers to stand in our place to take our penalty.

Sadly many roads do not lead to heaven, it is described as ‘narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it, but broad is the highway that leads to destruction and many find it’. I’m sorry but being kind and doing good is not enough to blot out the things we’ve done wrong. If being kind was enough, Jesus would not have had to die.

In answering the ideal parent description I am referring to his nature as described in the bible and my own personal experience of him. What people might not know is that Jesus is still showing up in person around the world and intervening to save lives and heal. People could argue this is all made up, but countless thousands of people testifying of him and being healed, often of terminal or life long conditions. Contrary the recruit, recruit, recruit view this is just not true, it is nothing to do with ‘getting people’ for the sake of it and the idea is a bit strange. I do understand cults can do this and actively recruit, but not born again believers. It actually comes at great personal cost to us to share Jesus, we get abused and mocked and spat on. The truth is there is no reward or gain for us to share our faith, most of the Christians I’ve known are persecuted for it, and ripped apart (a bit like on this forum!) and yes it would be easier to just say nothing! In other countries people are being tortured for their faith and locked up for it or killed - just like in the days of the apostles and early first century church. So why do it? Why did the apostles do it? Most were imprisoned and horribly killed for sharing the gospel. Before Jesus’s death they were all cowards and hid away. Peter denied him and ran off. It was only when Jesus was resurrected and met with them that they spoke out. They certainly didn’t do it for jollys or to just ‘get the numbers’ up! None profiteered, why die a torturous death for something you know is a lie? Why bother putting this on mumsnet when I could be pleasing myself doing whatever? I don’t gain from it and have never made a penny (in fact the opposite). There are unfortunately corrupt preachers out there who have made money to feather their own nest, and this is not at all Christian and very damaging as it gives a terrible representation of Jesus. People are not perfect, Christians are not perfect (I was bullied at church as a teen!) I am not perfect, it is more reason as to why I need his grace every day. I know more insults will be thrown, but we do it because Jesus found us and gave us life. He doesn’t want us to die and we don’t want people (especially the ones we love) to die either. So do children still suffer and die? Yes. Does god care and intervene? Yes, but not every child survives and I don’t think I will ever know why some do and some don’t, but I do know we are loved and wanted more than we can imagine, but we are also living in a fallen world.

I have also struggled with the permanence of hell, as eternity for those who go there. It is unthinkable. But however awful and horrifying the concept, I accept it is true. Christians who don’t are choosing to ignore all the scriptures where Jesus clearly states this in black and white. Jesus actually spoke more about hell than heaven. He would not have chosen to suffer and die on the cross if there was nothing to save us from. The bible descriptions of it and even the testimonies of those who have experienced it firsthand via death or vision, made it really clear beyond shadow of doubt that it is a place you would not wish your worst enemy go to, even for one minute. Again, if there were no consequences for sin then god would not be just, he is loving but also holy and a just judge. Imagine if someone murdered your child and god shrugs and says ‘never mind, no penalty’. His nature is love and also Justice. The bible shows us that the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23) but, the good news is that the gift of god is eternal life through Jesus Christ. which is why the emphasis is making people aware of their choices in this life, and how it affects the next. Jesus chose to go to the cross and die, he suffered unimaginable pain in the process not just physical torture but spiritual separation from god as he took the sins of the world upon himself and ‘became sin’, he did all this to take our place. I understand why people might see this as monstrous, god not saving everyone from hell, but it is biblical truth, it is a real place and god passionately wants to save us from that end, but he cannot force. He holds the door open though, and offers free entry for all who want to come in.

God is so misunderstood. As Christians we do an awful job of representing him. The great thing is we can all know him for ourselves if we want to. He can answer all our questions and more. There is one simple thing you can ask which is ‘God if you are real, please make yourself known to me’. He will never fail to answer an honest seeker.

Jellyfish chips, this is an inspired post and encapsulates all that I have been mulling over for the last 24 hrs but could never have put so well. It brings to mind 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Isaiah 44:18. Thank you.

@Jellyfishnchips, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, because we are not going to see eye to eye on this one.

There is no logic (in my view) in saying that there must be justice and accountability, and that justice requires penalty, if the person taking that penalty was not responsible for the crime. How is that justice? If I were the victim of the crime and the judge decided to take the punishment on himself, rather than making the perpetrator pay for the crime, would I be satisfied by that? Not a chance, I would just be angry that yet another innocent person had suffered while the original perpetrator got away with nothing.

You say that I would want the get-out-of-jail-free card if I was in the dock as a murderer. Yes, quite likely that I would, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be right or "just" for me to get it. On the other hand, I accept that there is a place for mercy. So why can't God just be merciful and forgive people for their sins directly?

Saying that someone had to take the penalty just seems arbitrary. The argument seems to be that it's true because the Bible says so, but again, that's a circular argument. Why did there have to be a penalty in the first place? Why not just make people account for their behaviour when they get to heaven and have to live with their consciences? It can't actually be about justice, because if it was, then the only just logical approach would be to make the perpetrator take the penalty. If it's about repentance, why not just punish those who are clearly unrepentant? If God is omniscient, I'm sure he can tell the difference.

You seem to believe that there is some kind of unwritten rule that, if there is a crime, there has to be a penalty, regardless of who takes that penalty. But why would an omnipotent god write such a stupid rule in the first place? If he wanted to be merciful, then he could just pardon us without all of the nonsense and drama in between. Or he could pardon the ones who repent and punish the ones who don't. He is in control, supposedly. There is no need for the Jesus intervention, I can't see how it adds anything.

I think the problem with these debates generally is that there is always one group of people who think that certain things are self evident because the Bible says so, whereas there is another group of people for whom the Bible is just a book, written by humans, which is evidence of nothing.

The first group repeatedly refer to the Bible as evidence for their points, without seeming to understand that this just looks like a circular argument for those who don't believe.

I am not sure if they think that the non-believers would actually be convinced if they would only go away and read the Bible - as if the Bible itself somehow has some magical power of persuasion that will bring even the most sceptical person round to their version of the truth. I can only say that this wasn't my experience. I have read the Bible from cover to cover, and studied some parts many times over. It did not speak any truth to me. It was just a book, written by men, like any of the other holy books that I have read from other religions.

I think this is why the arguments keep going round in circles, because what seems to be self evident to one group looks pretty hollow to the other group. I guess this is why we will never really be able to understand each other.

@AlexaShutUp I think the argument for religion is quite similar to the argument why we have a royal family. Given that Britain is an irreligous country, most of us including the monarchists don't believe in the divine right of kings. If you don't believe in god, why would you believe that god appointed a certain person to be monarch- that sounds even more stupid than believing in god. But the monarchy is very popular in the UK and the main reason is because we had it for a long time and its working ok for us. Religion is a similar institution- it is flawed but at the same time provides comfort to a lot of people and also a sense of connection to other people, both past and present. Its also a form of identity and most people benefit from having a strong identity- UK has a weak sense of national consciousness imho so this can be a subsitute.

THis is the only way it makes sense to me, but i do belong to an ancient religion- Judaism (albeit a contemporary version of it). Which i feel is what differentiates born again Christians from the members of older denominations like Catholics, Cof E, Judaism and Islam

Hi, I just wanted to share a few more thoughts on this thread, it has been much on my mind today. I have atheist friends who also get frustrated by theology as it doesn’t make sense for them either. I was not always believing and can empathise with views from these angles, as it is not an easy subject.

Sorry this is long

So looking more into Christian beliefs and why (on earth!) do we believe what we do. Firstly, we believe we’ve been saved by grace, through faith. This means gods forgiveness and salvation cannot be earned, as it is offered freely. Paul states in Romans 6:14, that we are ‘no longer under law but under grace’. The law is still important, which is the 10 commandments, and laws contained in the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and we note that grace (through Jesus) does not invalidate them. Jesus himself said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17). John 1:17 says, “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” So because of this grace, born again believers first and foremost point to a person, rather than a rule book.

How do we know that the person we claim to be god really exists? Some are convinced by the bible alone - it is not impossible but I have found it much more common that it is through a combination of a personal encounter with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and people then pick up a bible to find out more. Regarding a personal encounter, I can give this example: Someone lay in hospital with a broken spine in immense pain, following an accident. They call to god for help as the dr’s have taken X-rays of the break and they are lying there facing the prospect of paralysis, also the pain is excruciating. The prayer is answered and miraculously Jesus heals their spine. In this moment the pain leaves and a follow up x-ray confirms what the person already knew, that their spine had been completely healed and made whole. They walk out of hospital. I know this account well as it happened to a close friend and it was (how could it not be?) utterly life changing for them. So for those reading who do not believe god exists, I can see how it can be very frustrating to argue with someone that he doesn’t, when they say they’ve met him for themselves. It would be like trying to convince me that I never met my husband, and he doesn’t exist.

This may make no difference to how you feel about Jesus, but there are growing first hand accounts of his appearing to people in person (visibly) around the world. It is astonishing and something you will never hear reported in most media. But there are a number of reports from Iran, Iraq, China, the former Soviet Union, Greece and am sure other places, I’ve lost track! In Christian circles this is utterly unprecedented and exciting. His coming is often accompanied by healing or other miracle. In one such account, an Iraqi Muslim family on a makeshift refugee boat heading to Greece from Turkey, lost their young daughter into the sea when she fell overboard due to rough stormy waters. It was in the middle of the night and unable to find her they cried out and prayed to god for help. Moments later, they see her sitting on the other side of the boat and asked “What happened?”, “Over and over, she says, ‘A man in white walked on water. He grabbed my hand and put me back in the boat,”. Jesus appearing personally happened for the Apostles too in the days following his resurrection. On one occasion he was seen by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15:6). And Paul, who had that dramatic encounter on the Damascus road. For me I met Jesus (or he met with me) and it changed everything. People can argue that the bible is not true and was written by only men etc but the Person of Jesus. How can you explain and argue people’s first hand encounters with him? People have tried to argue he never existed, but he is historically verified again and again this argument always falls flat. There are many accounts of his life, teaching, death and resurrection both in biblical manuscripts and outside the bible. The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work of literature, with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts catalogued, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. Roman reports and Jewish scholar historian Flavius Josephus are examples of historical accounts outside of the gospels and are obviously not biased towards Jesus and his teaching. They do however cross reference his life and teachings and some of the miracles witnessed by people.

If the bible is not true or has just been written by men, how can it be explained that Jesus’s birth, life, death and resurrection were prophesied hundreds of years before he was born, in the Old Testament? Can just (mere) men prophesy the future like this, and tell the whole life, death and resurrection of a man who wouldn’t be born for hundreds of years in the future, in exact detail? Like the place of his birth, his ministry and the way he would die? Like in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. I don’t believe crucifixion even existed in Old Testament times, as it was a Roman era construct. How can this be explained if it is felt the bible is only written by men and not Holy Spirit inspired. Other biblical prophesies also extend to things/ events that happened after they were written too, like the Diaspora (the expelling of the Jewish people from Israel and their worldwide scattering), the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. How about Cyrus king of Persia, who was prophesied to liberate the Jewish people from their Babylonian captivity in the book of Isaiah? (His exact actual name was prophesied!) some 150 years before he entered the frame. And most remarkable is when he did, he fulfilled exactly what had been written of him and liberated the Jews. I would be keen to hear thoughts on this, if it ithe bible is indeed written only by men and therefore not reliable.

Faith as a gift is available to anyone, atheists, other kinds of non belief or people from other religious groups and not a select few. Anyone can seek it and see if it changes anything for them or not. Something like this kind of prayer perhaps: “God, I really want to know, once and for all, if you are real or not. I don’t believe in you. But even so, if you are there, please give me the gift of faith and make yourself known to me”.

There are a couple of atheist personal accounts of how they came to faith which may (or may not) be of interest. They both died, but came back and told of what they saw/encountered on the other side. One is from a former American University Professor, who was a devout Atheist - his name is Howard Storm. Another man called Ian McCormack, a down-to-earth New Zealander who was stung 5 times by box jellyfish in the late 80’s (one of the deadliest venoms known to man, a single sting alone more than enough to kill). He was a young surfer into hedonistic lifestyle, drugs and the party scene and was certainly not looking for god when his tragedy struck. His story I found most compelling, from both viewpoints of belief and non-belief, as I was not Christian when I first heard him speak. Their stories can be found on You Tube.

Thank you btw Pantherrose, much appreciated!

Don’t you think that you’re cherry picking parts of the Bible?
If you choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin, shouldn’t you abide by the law of the Old Testament in its entirety? I presume you wear mixed fabrics, eat animals with cloven hooves, put dairy and meat on the same plate, and associate with men when you have your period?

So why is it that homosexuality is singled out for you as the one part to follow?

Also, do you think that in any way the church preyed upon you when you were vulnerable and gave you somewhere to belong?

My experiences of this kind of faith aren’t good. I know other Christians who live what I would consider a much more Christian life, including a vicar who doesn’t believe what you believe.

@ArosAdraDrosDolig these are excellent questions.
@midwifeinthemaking are you still here?

Regarding a personal encounter, I can give this example: Someone lay in hospital with a broken spine in immense pain, following an accident. They call to god for help as the dr’s have taken X-rays of the break and they are lying there facing the prospect of paralysis, also the pain is excruciating. The prayer is answered and miraculously Jesus heals their spine. In this moment the pain leaves and a follow up x-ray confirms what the person already knew, that their spine had been completely healed and made whole. They walk out of hospital. I know this account well as it happened to a close friend and it was (how could it not be?) utterly life changing for them.

But unexplained medical events occur all the time, good and bad. I was in Lourdes on holiday a few years ago, and there's a bureau for the investigation of medical 'miracles' attributed to prayers at the shrine -- with extremely stringent and bureaucratic tests for what is considered a 'miracle'. Only some tiny percentage of what is reported to them is 'accredited'.

Why you would offer pure hearsay as 'evidence' for the existence of God baffles me. But my main concern is not whether this person believes Jesus personally intervened to stop his/her paralysis after a prayer, but why the arbitrariness of the intervention? Because virtually everyone in that situation would pray, as would the parent of a dying child, but all that believers can come up with about why divine intervention is so scattergun is a lot of handwaving about divine will and prayers not being answered in the way you expect. If that person had been paralysed, no doubt there would be some faith-filled cliché about Jesus in Gethsemane asking that this cup be taken from him and how their prayers were answered by being given the strength to endure their paralysis etc.

So for those reading who do not believe god exists, I can see how it can be very frustrating to argue with someone that he doesn’t, when they say they’ve met him for themselves. It would be like trying to convince me that I never met my husband, and he doesn’t exist.

No it wouldn't. Your husband demonstrably exists. There is third-party hard evidence of his birth, education, employment, marriage, banking details etc. Other people see him. If he takes the bins out, other people see him doing it, and there's no question that someone else took them out. If you regularly ask your husband for help he can easily give when you or your children are in difficulties, and he doesn't give it, you'd probably conclude this wasn't a great relationship. When God does the same, you come up with endless rationales about free will and a fallen world to explain why he doesn't help.

Tim Minchin’s Thank You God is perfect for this thread.

BTW, crucifixion was used by, amongst others, the Persians about 500 years BC. it wasn't just a Roman practice but existed in various forms in many countries.
On another note: I have always been curious as to why a supreme being should vouchsafe the knowledge of his existence to a small group of people in what we call the Middle East. I suppose that I will be given 'good' reasons for that, but it really makes no sense, does it?

And for me that is the point;NONE of it makes any sense. I have read the bible and quite frankly that is my overwhelming feeling.
And after that there is just the whole area of 'religious' people persecuting those who don't believe or whose beliefs are not orthodox. I mean where was god then? Was s/he/they OK with people being tortured and executed in ever more horrific ways?
What about the infallibility of the pope? I'm not sure if that concept still exists but if you read about a lot of them they were the worst sinners around ! But they were supposed to have a hotline to god and be holy! I mean really? And did god do anything ? No!
Sorry had to get that off my chest.

On another note: I have always been curious as to why a supreme being should vouchsafe the knowledge of his existence to a small group of people in what we call the Middle East.

I've seen this question before and the reason given, if I recall correctly, was that the middle east was central to the trade routes of the day, with access to the Roman Empire, Greece, the Mediterranean, North Africa, etc. So it was quite a good place to plant the seed, so to speak.

What about the infallibility of the pope?

That's one of the many reasons I left the RC church.

What about the infallibility of the pope? I'm not sure if that concept still exists but if you read about a lot of them they were the worst sinners around ! But they were supposed to have a hotline to god and be holy! I mean really? And did god do anything ? No!

Well, the type of Christian the OP seems to be generally has a horror of Catholics, so I suspect they'd be fine with regarding all popes with disgust.

More generally, although it was debated in medieval times, the doctrine of papal infallibility only dates from the late 19thc, and is in fact limited to when the pope speaks 'ex cathedra' in his capacity as head of the church and only when defining a doctrine -- so it's not even that he's infallible in everything he does as a human being, he's not even infallible in everything he says. And there have only ever been two pronouncements that all Catholic theologians agree are definitely infallible (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary), so it's not like they bob up on the balcony and shout 'The moon is made of green cheese!'

Mind you, that moon being made of a dairy product makes about as much sense as the Immaculate Conception of the Assumption,

Jellyfishnchips and the Evangelical interpretation of Christianity vary greatly with the writings from early Christians (within a couple of centuries of Jesus being on earth) and the long standing churches (Orthodox, Catholic and Coptic). Also, not all Protestant denominations believe in the same interpretation.

Evangelicals appear to believe and focus on the Bible verses that support their interpretation. This interpretation is like a big switch ... you are saved through grace (free gift from God) so if you believe that and have a personal relationship with Jesus (often by having an "experience" and by reading the Bible) then they are going to Heaven. Some Evangelicals that I have met or heard do not accept non "Born Again Chriatians" as Christians and expect non "Born Again Christians" will not go to Heaven.
They also put great emphasis on Gods providence or sovereignty in that everything happens as part of what God planned.
Evangelicals also put a much greater emphasis on the literal interpretation of the bible (e.g. disprove science using the bible i.e. creationalists, all bad things are punishment for sin in the world or focus on the very wrathful God from the old testament).

In writings from the early church believers (taught by the Apostles or next generation disciples), Catholic and Orthodox teaching (as well as some Protestant churches) ... there is a much more open acceptance that humans cannot know everything about God and why things happen. These Christians also understand that Jesus came to redeem the world. It is much more of a belief in good news and hope for all. Also it is a belief that all can be forgiven if people are truely sorry for wrong doing. it is a belief that Christians must not only believe, but also act as Christians by obeying the commandments and doing good works of charity.... but accept that everyone will faulter. There is also more of an understanding than non-Christians would be treated with kindness by God ... but as humans they could never guess how God would judge anyone (whether Christian or not).

Now unfortunately all religion has been riddled with wrongdoers ... and many churches and institutions tried to cover wrongdoings... and that is abhorrant - even worse than the wrongdoings.

There is no magic formula to prove or disprove God. All we can do is explain the reason for what we believe and why... and more importantly treat others with respect for their beliefs.

Many people believe in "a God" and their faiths brings comfort ... and many do not believe in "a God" and get comfort from not believing!

I agree that my examples weren't the best(!), but I am really just saying that when ludicrous statements or actions are being taken in the name of a supreme being why is it that s/he does nothing? I could just have easily mentioned other prominent religious leaders who spout complete nonsense and get away with it. It's why I really can't believe because it seems that god doesn't give two hoots what people are doing apparently at his/her behest.
BTW my father's ancestors dating all the way back to late 1400 were religious dissenters when being that got you all sorts of problems. It includes some fairly weird sects, the other side were RC. I am an atheist because it just makes no sense!

Hi Ovine, thank you some good points there. So you are right, unexplained medical events do occur. Can you prove that they were not all divinely intervened though? No and neither could I. They might all have been, none of them might or something in-between. I think it boils down to perspective. To call it hearsay evidence is interesting and I think this depends again on perspective. I knew the friend telling me their account firsthand, straightaway that made a huge difference to the reliability of what I heard. I also knew them beforehand, they were atheist and dismissive of anything spiritual. I had a phone call from them in hospital, in tears in their desperate state and pain. When I met them after hospital they showed me two sets of X-rays; one with a break and the other without. So perhaps here more than some, there is a degree of provable evidence but again people could just argue the x-rays were someone else’s, swapped out, faked etc. I also observed the personal and spiritual transformation that took place for them afterwards. So to me the account is reliable, but to you you don’t know them or me from dickens, and therefore it appears as heresay. What happens though, if the perspective shifts? What if was your friend in that hospital bed? What if it was you?...

Would it be just as easy to dismiss it as heresay, if you encountered it firsthand?

Saul (Paul) hated Christians and made it his life mission to root them out and destroy them. He despised the very name of Jesus and every one of his followers. Everything changed on that Damascus road. Even those with him heard Jesus voice and “stood speechless”. Could science prove that he met Jesus there, in that sudden blinding light? No. But what about the transformed life that followed? That IS evidential. Paul’s life is perhaps one of the best illustrations of a total diametric transformation.

Science is fantastic, but observable science doesn’t answer everything in life. Can it prove love? Something that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, heard or in any physical way observed and tested - but yet, is it not the most wonderful, powerful and fulfilling thing on the planet? Does it give us happiness, comfort, a sense of identity and worth? Could I scientifically prove to you that I love my husband? No. Can I scientifically prove gods love? No. Does this make it not true? Well that is up to everyone to decide, I could show you the history with my spouse, how we met, what kind of relationship it was then and now, maybe the letters and cards we sent eachother over the years, our marriage vows and perhaps speaking to family who know us. You would interpret what this spoken and written evidence reveals, and make a determination for yourself on whether you believe it to be true or not.

In a way, this is the same for demonstrating gods love as shown in the bible (written) and his actions in people’s lives today, and throughout history through personal witness (spoken). We were not alive when the bible was written, and not many of us will be physically present when a miracle like this occurs. So we have to consider the evidence, weigh and balance it for ourselves and determine if it is true or not. (Personal witness by the way, I feel should not be so quickly dismissed. It as after all, used and acceptable in courts of law all around the world). This is why I would encourage all seekers, skeptics, anti-god and un-decided to pray that prayer to ask god to show himself to them personally, and make it clear once and for all whether he exists or not. If he is most decidedly non existent, what have you got to lose? I shall call it the prayer dare!

Out of interest, Nicky Gumbel, Vicar of Holy Trinity Brompton in London was himself a huge skeptic and atheist. He was also a legal barrister and therefore very legalistic in his outlook. He set out to disprove god and the bible, (the motivation came at university when two good friends of his to his shock and horror became Christian) but when he read the bible for himself he describes it as Jesus coming alive from the pages, to quote him: “Jesus emerged from the pages of the New Testament, I encountered him and knew that he was alive. Despite all of my philosophical objections, I knew that I had to take a step of faith and either say yes or no to Jesus.”

Personal experience is powerful. Please consider also that non-religious personal experience is powerful and not always scientifically probable either, (can you prove how you felt the moment you gave birth and held your baby for the first time?) but you CAN prove lives do change from it. I’ve met people who had been through unspeakable trauma and had their broken hearts mended, freedom from addictions, marriages saved, many different chains broken. The experience of gods transforming, redeeming power around the globe with millions of believers and their experiential accounts (there are approx 2.3 billion Christians in the world) is an awful lot of heresay to dismiss. So can I sit here and tell you god takes my bins out like my husband, no. But he has met with me, spoken with me, helped me, healed me in ways that are just as real as anything physical. So I come back to that prayer dare... how many of you are willing to step out and ask? What do you have to lose if this is all vapour and nonsense?

Apologies again, I can’t seem to write short answers!

My personal experience is that if there is a god s/he isn't really taking any notice and doesn't give two hoots about me. See my first comment re my mother dying.

I think it's interesting if you are going to go down the route of using personal experiences of the divine and examples of unexplained healing. I can see why these stories are compelling for people.

If you accept these stories as evidence, however, then I guess you are accepting that Christianity is not the true path, because there are compelling testimonies in many different traditions of people experiencing such things.

It is certainly possible that these experiences are indeed all evidence of encounters with god and divine intervention, but then we must concede that God presents himself through more than one religion. Alternatively, there could be some other explanation for these phenomena. What you cannot do is argue for the Christian examples to be accepted as evidence, while the examples from other faith traditions are dismissed.

What do you have to lose if this is all vapour and nonsense?

The thing is, this question is predicated on a very binary way of looking at the world. You are either Christian or you're not. What about all of the other religions that are equally convinced of their own rightness? Christianity is no more convincing than any of them.

None of us really know what we have got to lose if it's all vapour and nonsense. Yea, you could buy into Christianity just in case it turns out to be true, but what if it then turned out that it was Islam that was right all along? Or any of the other religions? What if it turns out that you have bet everything on the wrong horse?

There is literally no point in signing up to a religion as some sort of spiritual insurance policy. People should follow what they believe and respect the right of others to do likewise.

Annoyed with myself now as I wasn't planning to get drawn into any further debate on this topic but I got sucked back in!

you are right, unexplained medical events do occur. Can you prove that they were not all divinely intervened though?

Well, no, because neither I nor anyone else can prove a negative. I can't prove either that any cure wasn't inspired by Zeus or the Scientologists' Thetans.

But what about the transformed life that followed? That IS evidential. Paul’s life is perhaps one of the best illustrations of a total diametric transformation.

But, OP, it's only evidential of his belief, not of the existence of what he believed in. Beliefs absolutely transform lives, but those beliefs can be nonsensical or actively dangerous people utterly transform their lives joining loopy cults, discovering environmental politics, going off-grid, or getting radicalised on the internet and joining Islamic State. I know a former couch potato who now runs extreme marathons. I knew a former merchant banker who, when I met him, was living in a bender and making his own inks and dyes. I used to know a nun who worked with trafficked women in London she was an extraordinary person who cheerfully dealt with horrors on a daily basis, but that constitutes no proof that her belief rests on any actuality.

So can I sit here and tell you god takes my bins out like my husband, no. But he has met with me, spoken with me, helped me, healed me in ways that are just as real as anything physical.

How has he 'met' with you, 'spoken' with you?

So I come back to that prayer dare... how many of you are willing to step out and ask?

That's where you lose me, @Jellyfishnchips. It's pretty insulting to think that non-believers are non-believers because they 'don't dare' to pray, don't you think?

And that ship sailed a long time ago for me. Like a pp, I was an extremely religious child, product of a devout family, in a religiously observant society, and when I was abused as a young child, my first instinct was to pray for it to stop.

But it didn't. I suppose it was one of the days when God was busy elsewhere, and couldn't even delegate an actual human being to stop a small child being repeatedly sexually hurt by an adult, or even to have someone walk into a room at the right moment to see something wasn't right. I didn't need 'justice', I didn't need a fuss, I didn't want anyone arrested, I just wanted it to stop. But it went on and on. I continued to pray daily, go to church, take the sacraments very seriously. I asked over and over again. I thought I mustn't be praying hard enough. Nothing. None of these cosy paternal chats and supernatural hugs and consolation that seem to come up so often on this thread.

And when I was rather older I just got abruptly tired of the mental gymnastics required to square the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity with the clear message from my own life. Which is that we're on our own. We need to rescue ourselves and each other, because there's no one smiling down from the sky, interested in the fall of each sparrow.

Although that always strikes me too -- God sees each sparrow fall according to Matthew, but he doesn't do anything about it.

you are right, unexplained medical events do occur. Can you prove that they were not all divinely intervened though?

They do happen and they're called spontaneous remissions, but they are very rare and it's typically a chronic disease, like cancer that's involved. Someone up-thread used a fractured spine as an example. That would be in the medical journals if it actually happened.

@Jellyfishnchips

Hi Ovine, thank you some good points there. So you are right, unexplained medical events do occur. Can you prove that they were not all divinely intervened though? No and neither could I. They might all have been, none of them might or something in-between. I think it boils down to perspective. To call it hearsay evidence is interesting and I think this depends again on perspective. I knew the friend telling me their account firsthand, straightaway that made a huge difference to the reliability of what I heard. I also knew them beforehand, they were atheist and dismissive of anything spiritual. I had a phone call from them in hospital, in tears in their desperate state and pain. When I met them after hospital they showed me two sets of X-rays; one with a break and the other without. So perhaps here more than some, there is a degree of provable evidence but again people could just argue the x-rays were someone else’s, swapped out, faked etc. I also observed the personal and spiritual transformation that took place for them afterwards. So to me the account is reliable, but to you you don’t know them or me from dickens, and therefore it appears as heresay. What happens though, if the perspective shifts? What if was your friend in that hospital bed? What if it was you?...

Would it be just as easy to dismiss it as heresay, if you encountered it firsthand?

Saul (Paul) hated Christians and made it his life mission to root them out and destroy them. He despised the very name of Jesus and every one of his followers. Everything changed on that Damascus road. Even those with him heard Jesus voice and “stood speechless”. Could science prove that he met Jesus there, in that sudden blinding light? No. But what about the transformed life that followed? That IS evidential. Paul’s life is perhaps one of the best illustrations of a total diametric transformation.

Science is fantastic, but observable science doesn’t answer everything in life. Can it prove love? Something that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, heard or in any physical way observed and tested - but yet, is it not the most wonderful, powerful and fulfilling thing on the planet? Does it give us happiness, comfort, a sense of identity and worth? Could I scientifically prove to you that I love my husband? No. Can I scientifically prove gods love? No. Does this make it not true? Well that is up to everyone to decide, I could show you the history with my spouse, how we met, what kind of relationship it was then and now, maybe the letters and cards we sent eachother over the years, our marriage vows and perhaps speaking to family who know us. You would interpret what this spoken and written evidence reveals, and make a determination for yourself on whether you believe it to be true or not.

In a way, this is the same for demonstrating gods love as shown in the bible (written) and his actions in people’s lives today, and throughout history through personal witness (spoken). We were not alive when the bible was written, and not many of us will be physically present when a miracle like this occurs. So we have to consider the evidence, weigh and balance it for ourselves and determine if it is true or not. (Personal witness by the way, I feel should not be so quickly dismissed. It as after all, used and acceptable in courts of law all around the world). This is why I would encourage all seekers, skeptics, anti-god and un-decided to pray that prayer to ask god to show himself to them personally, and make it clear once and for all whether he exists or not. If he is most decidedly non existent, what have you got to lose? I shall call it the prayer dare!

Out of interest, Nicky Gumbel, Vicar of Holy Trinity Brompton in London was himself a huge skeptic and atheist. He was also a legal barrister and therefore very legalistic in his outlook. He set out to disprove god and the bible, (the motivation came at university when two good friends of his to his shock and horror became Christian) but when he read the bible for himself he describes it as Jesus coming alive from the pages, to quote him: “Jesus emerged from the pages of the New Testament, I encountered him and knew that he was alive. Despite all of my philosophical objections, I knew that I had to take a step of faith and either say yes or no to Jesus.”

Personal experience is powerful. Please consider also that non-religious personal experience is powerful and not always scientifically probable either, (can you prove how you felt the moment you gave birth and held your baby for the first time?) but you CAN prove lives do change from it. I’ve met people who had been through unspeakable trauma and had their broken hearts mended, freedom from addictions, marriages saved, many different chains broken. The experience of gods transforming, redeeming power around the globe with millions of believers and their experiential accounts (there are approx 2.3 billion Christians in the world) is an awful lot of heresay to dismiss. So can I sit here and tell you god takes my bins out like my husband, no. But he has met with me, spoken with me, helped me, healed me in ways that are just as real as anything physical. So I come back to that prayer dare... how many of you are willing to step out and ask? What do you have to lose if this is all vapour and nonsense?

Apologies again, I can’t seem to write short answers!

This is why I would encourage all seekers, skeptics, anti-god and un-decided to pray that prayer to ask god to show himself to them personally, and make it clear once and for all whether he exists or not. If he is most decidedly non existent, what have you got to lose? I shall call it the prayer dare!

Do you genuinely not think though that countless parents throughout history who have been atheist, have begged and begged for god to show himself if he exists by curing their ill children? They genuinely want that to happen. They want to believe. They pray and pray and say they would believe and spread gods word if he shows himself to them by easing their pain.

So why doesn't the 'prayer dare' work for them?

See also victims of abuse, rape, assault trying to get over trauma by sobbing and begging god to please show he is real and loving and help them believe in him by showing himself. He seemingly doesn't often choose to answer those calls. Why?

This is why I would encourage all seekers, skeptics, anti-god and un-decided to pray that prayer to ask god to show himself to them personally, and make it clear once and for all whether he exists or not.

I did that. Multiple times. I got my answer. He doesn't exist.

Alexa Im sorry I think you have to pray with your heart. Which is not such an easy thing to do. You can pray in a spirit of cynicism or anger but its not the best thing to do. You need to be persistent. I know you don't believe me but persistence pays off. As does finding out more.

My favourite prayer: Lord I want to believe. Help me with my unbelief.