I'm a born-again christian single parent - AMA

[midwifeinthemaking]

Just that really - would love to answer any questions, dispel myths etc.

Would it be just as easy to dismiss it as heresay, if you encountered it firsthand?

Hearsay is literally second hand evidence - something that someone else has told you about, not something you saw for yourself. Hence the way it is spelt. So self-evidently if you encountered it firsthand it wouldn't be hearsay.

you are right, unexplained medical events do occur. Can you prove that they were not all divinely intervened though?

@Jellyfishnchips, can you prove that, if they were all divinely intervened, the divine concerned was your god rather than Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, Odin, Jupiter or whoever?

@ZenNudist, do you really imagine that @Ovine wasn't praying with her heart or not praying persistently for someone to save her from abuse? Or that the desperate parents @youvegottenminuteslynn refers too? How do you account for the lack of answers to their prayers?

I find the idea that non-believers haven’t prayed hard enough, or in the right way, offensive. There is also this idea that atheists are angry with god or scared to believe. I can’t speak for all atheists but for me it’s none of those things. God is no more real to me than unicorns or Gandalf. He is a work of fiction, invented by humans. I am fine with that, and fine that some people choose to believe he is real. Don’t need pity or encouragement to believe. I am pleased people find comfort in religion but I find comfort in not being religious. I find it freeing, I find it makes life even more precious and special than if it came from a higher being.

Also this idea you should believe because “what have you got to lose”, sounds desperate. If God is all knowing, he is going to know you are only believing for that reason.

@ZenNudist

But as I asked above (and this isn't goady, I'm genuinely asking how this tallies with your belief - Do you genuinely not think though that countless parents throughout history who have been atheist, have begged and begged for god to show himself if he exists by curing their ill children?

They genuinely want that to happen. They want to believe. They pray and pray and say they would believe and spread gods word if he shows himself to them by easing their pain.

So why doesn't the 'prayer dare' work for them?

See also victims of abuse, rape, assault trying to get over trauma by sobbing and begging god to please show he is real and loving and help them believe in him by showing himself. He seemingly doesn't often choose to answer those calls. Why?

The parents I mentioned will have been asking with their heart, repeatedly, genuinely, wholeheartedly, with an open heart and mind. Why did god choose not to respond them? I'm not even saying via a cure for their sick child, but even via a feeling he would take care of the child should they pass etc? Why ignore them?

Just for the record, in case there is any doubt, there is nothing that Christians can do to make non-Christians less likely to want to "follow Jesus" than behave as if you have all the answers and everyone else just needs to try harder.

We don't believe you anyway, but even if we did, we would probably fight it for fear of becoming like you.

Thanks for the answer op (page 11 of you are still here..) but I am still concerned you say that you are ensuring that she knows truth. I fear that 'truth' is the Bible, most of which is totally without evidence and much of which teaches things that a modern secular society finds intolerant, vicious and discriminatory.

I am sorry, I didn’t mean to offend anyone with suggesting the prayer, and in no way do I think non-believers are such because they don’t dare to pray. Only that it might be useful as a tool to open the door of communication. If a heart is hardened against god, it is like that door of communication is firmly shut, locked and bolted. I guess the prayer could be like just opening the door a tiny crack to see if anyone is there. The non-believers in my family are angry at god for different things, others feel let down and abandoned in times of great need and conclude he must not exist. I totally emphasise with this, it is completely understandable to feel this way and respond in this way. hurtful/harmful experiences like this are probably one of the biggest reasons people hate god, believe in his non-existence, fall from faith or never have it. I don’t believe only born again Christians are going to heaven (faithful people in Old Testament times for example who had no access to Jesus’s atonement on the cross) and I believe god will be merciful to those who’ve had mountains of pain to climb in this life.

I am so sorry Ovine, to hear of the terrible, deplorable abuses you suffered as a child and the fact that no-one was there to step in to stop it, and your prayers were not answered. There are no words and no justification for this brutal, heart breaking abuse. I am so sorry and cannot tell you why that happened but I can share my own similar experience. Sexual abuse started for me when I was 5. Thankfully this person did not live with us at home, but let’s just say no opportunity was missed as his visits. As bad as this was, it was the daily threatening and violent abuses at home that I desperately wanted to escape. On one occasion I was so terrified, I tried to climb out of a second storey window to escape beating. When I was 6, I ran away from home. God has healed so much for me, but this memory never fails to make me cry as I see 6 year old me, alone in my room quietly packing the things I think I will need in life in a small blanket, just a few little vests and knickers, and my favourite teddies. No one saw me as I left through the back door. Although it is so long ago, the memory is crystal clear, I reached a dead end dusty back-alley somewhere and just broke down in tears on the ground. A kindly old man found me and brought me inside his home to try and help. There was an old lady there too, I think she must have been his wife, they were a lovely elderly couple. Eventually I calmed down and they brought me home (I’d been away for hours but don’t think I’d got very far). Alongside side a fearful home life I had a very traumatic school life, and attempted suicide when I was 15. I have heard many survivor stories like yours and mine. Later in life I learned that my parents both had very abusive upbringings, while this is no excuse it did help me understand a bit of the why. They were living with the affects of abuse, were young and failed in many ways as parents. I think in different ways, we all fail to be the people we would like to be. It is so very hard for people to hear that god could be there in all that suffering and make any kind of sense of it. Maybe the difference, for me, is that I can say having lived through all this, he truly has healed my heart and given me ‘Beauty for ashes’ (Isaiah 61:3) and a cup of joy. As crazy and impossible as it might sound, he completely redeemed the broken relationships I had with my parents, and they are now (beside my husband, children and god), the most loving, safe, happy and wonderful relationships I have. I cannot tell you how much I love them, and being with them and sharing our lives is a joy. With god’s help I was able to forgive, and with that forgiveness came huge release. My parents have in their own ways shown that they messed up, and have in turn had their own walks with god, received their own healing and forgiveness. I was even able to forgive the man that took my innocence as a child, and was present at his death bed when cancer took him many years ago , there was nothing but love as I held his hand and hugged him goodbye. God was in that room so strong, like a weight of mercy. I had heard that that he had come to faith and was a changed man (there were others who had suffered from him much more than me), it was certainly a relief to know he was saved and forgiven before he died. Such turn arounds are outside my own power and I know god has guided me every step, maybe even to give hope to other survivors that there is a way we can be free.

I can assure you that I prayed for my mother to live;wholeheartedly and sincerely. She still died. My dad absolutely adored my mum, I know he prayed for her to live. Tell me, what were we doing wrong? I was a child and if the prayers of a child and a man who adored his wife were unanswered then that says it all, to me. No god!

The non-believers in my family are angry at god for different things, others feel let down and abandoned in times of great need and conclude he must not exist.

I'm a non believer so I'm not angry at god. Because I don't believe in him.

I'm angry with people who say people don't pray hard enough or in the right way and that's why god doesn't help them.

I don't think god will help them, or answer them, because I don't believe in him. But hearing people who do believe in him tell other people they are praying 'wrong' makes me angry.

Can you see the difference?

A non believer can't be angry with god. They can be angry with how he is positioned by believers when it's in the way some people on this thread re 'dare to prayer' and similar.

*@Jellyfishnchips, I'm truly sorry about what happened to you as a child, and I'm glad that you have found some peace through your faith.

I understand why people want to share their faith. They have found something that helps them and they want to share it. Many may believe that they have a duty to share it. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, and I appreciate that it comes from a place of kindness. However, some Christians seem not to understand that their very attempts to share their faith actually just alienate people further. They have the opposite effect to the one that people are trying to achieve.

Arguing that the story of Jesus is true because the Bible says so doesn't work, because it's a circular argument. Some people will read the Bible and believe it to be true. Others will read it and not believe it at all. It is not possible to prove which one of these interpretations is correct. You can say that one has been given the gift of faith or you can say that one has a psychological pre-disposition to believe it, but either way, you have to accept that the Bible itself will never convince everybody.

Then there is the issue of personal experience. Many Christians seem to be convinced that sharing their personal experiences is compelling, but they need to understand that other people have different experiences which will be more compelling for them. Those experiences are equally valid. Bluntly, I trust my own experiences more than I trust yours. Perhaps you have had an encounter with the divine, or perhaps there is another psychological explanation. I don't know, but what I do know is that my experience has been different.

When people talk about the "prayer dare" or similar, they are projecting their own experiences on to others. They are assuming that it will be the same for everyone when it isn't. And if it doesn't work, it must be because you aren't trying hard enough.You haven't persisted enough. You haven't studied enough. You are too angry with God. Or you haven't prayed from the heart. It is supremely arrogant to think that you can explain other people's experiences away like that. You have no right to dismiss their truth, because it is every bit as valid as your own.

What some Christians need to understand is how they come across when they are trying to share their faith. When you are convinced that you have the truth and everyone else is wrong, you come across as smug, self-satisfied and superior. Nobody wants to be like that. When you dismiss the very real life experiences of other people and try to explain them with meaningless platitudes or exhortations to try harder, you come across as being disrespectful and lacking in self awareness. Nobody wants to be like that. And when you voice your opinions about what does or doesn't constitute sin, you come across as narrow-minded and judgmental. Nobody wants to be like that.

You will never persuade anyone to "follow Jesus" by trying to argue the case for Christianity, because logically, the arguments don't stack up. You will never persuade anyone to "follow Jesus" by talking about your own personal experiences, because other people cannot share those experiences. If people are going to find faith, they will find it regardless of what you do - call it a gift from God if you like, or call it a psychological pre-disposition. Ironically, the more you try to persuade people, the more you push them away.

To be clear, I am not saying this to attack you. I'm not having a go. I know you are not bad people, and I understand that you are coming from a place of wanting to help. I realise that you probably don't think you're superior to others, but frequently that is what comes across. I am telling you honestly how I feel, and how many other non-believers feel. Your intentions are good, but the limitations of your understanding and empathy get in the way.

If you truly want to share your faith, there is another way. I know some amazing Christians who I truly admire. They rarely talk about their faith and they never try to influence what others believe. They don't try to prescribe how others should live or to explain life's injustices with meaningless platitudes. They never preach or tell anyone else to pray. They do live their lives with humility and with the utmost respect for the experiences of other people. They do show kindness and compassion for all with no strings attached. They do make sacrifices to help other people, but they do so quietly and without fanfare.

Those are the kinds of people that others aspire to be like. They are true ambassadors for their faith. Their actions speak far louder than any words. So to those of you who feel inspired to share your faith, know this: you will make far more of an impact by working on yourself and the way you live your life than you will by worrying about what others think and believe. Make your faith into your personal strength and inspiration, and others may want to know more. Try to sell it to others, and you will completely switch them off.

I have heard many survivor stories like yours and mine. Later in life I learned that my parents both had very abusive upbringings, while this is no excuse it did help me understand a bit of the why. They were living with the affects of abuse, were young and failed in many ways as parents. I think in different ways, we all fail to be the people we would like to be. It is so very hard for people to hear that god could be there in all that suffering and make any kind of sense of it. Maybe the difference, for me, is that I can say having lived through all this, he truly has healed my heart and given me ‘Beauty for ashes’ (Isaiah 61:3) and a cup of joy. As crazy and impossible as it might sound, he completely redeemed the broken relationships I had with my parents, and they are now (beside my husband, children and god), the most loving, safe, happy and wonderful relationships I have. I cannot tell you how much I love them, and being with them and sharing our lives is a joy. With god’s help I was able to forgive, and with that forgiveness came huge release. My parents have in their own ways shown that they messed up, and have in turn had their own walks with god, received their own healing and forgiveness. I was even able to forgive the man that took my innocence as a child, and was present at his death bed when cancer took him many years ago , there was nothing but love as I held his hand and hugged him goodbye. God was in that room so strong, like a weight of mercy. I had heard that that he had come to faith and was a changed man (there were others who had suffered from him much more than me), it was certainly a relief to know he was saved and forgiven before he died.

I'm sorry you were also abused, @Jellyfishnchips. It's a club with far too many of us as members.

However, I'm not sure you recognise how offensive your reply was, particularly the part I've quoted above. I didn't ask you about whether you forgave your abuser, or whether you had been able to use your faith beliefs to retrospectively come to peace with your abuse, or whether your abuser had converted in later life.

I asked why the God whom you believe intervened to cure your paralysed friend failed to respond to the sincere, repeated prayers of an abused small child.

I can see that you have, understandably, evolved your own narrative as to how God fitted into this narrative, and perhaps for you, the 'redemption' of God helping you in forgiving your abuser and your neglectful and abusive parents provides a retrospective justification for why he refrained from intervening to stop your abuse.

But that just doesn't cut it for me. I am fine now about my abuse. My heart doesn't need healing, my abuser who was in fact a deeply religious man at the time he was abusing me is long dead, and I have never in fact blamed my parents, who are themselves the products of neglectful and dysfunctional backgrounds, who were taught to venerate priests and religious organisations as the ultimate authorities. I have never in fact told them about it. I haven't needed any religious belief to come to terms with any of this. I've done so because I'm a fundamentally psychologically healthy adult, and I recognise it's not possible for everyone.

But the fact that I have made my peace with my past in no way lessens the horror of what was done to me, and to countless others. As far as I'm aware, my abuser died in the full belief that he would be united with God in an afterlife -- I believe that he was deluded and that his life was simply extinguished, as mine will be.

Because the unpleasant fact is that people capable of repeated, horrific acts can also have a sincere belief in God. One would imagine that a follower of the Jesus who preached justice and charity for all would be distinguished among the general run of people for behaving generously and charitably, but I haven't found it to be so.

And platitudes about how everyone fails to be the 'person they would like to be' so we're all really sinners together really just don't cut it when it comes to child abuse -- when you rape a child, whether or not you get God afterwards and repent, that child stays raped. Like Matthew on God seeing the fall of the least sparrow. The sparrow still falls.

@Ovine, I'm sorry that you had such awful experiences too. I'm glad that you have found a way of making peace with what happened to you.

To make my earlier point in a different way, if your God is real, then he doesn't need you to act as his PR team. If people truly need "saving", then let it be by God's grace alone. Who are you to put yourselves on a pedestal as if you have all the answers? As if you know better than the rest? Is that really the approach that the Jesus of the Bible taught you? Stop worrying about everyone else's relationship with God and focus instead on your own. Focus on making yourself the best person you can possibly be and let God take care of the rest. If he is real, I'm sure he is capable.

Hi Ovine, again I am sorry, there was no offence meant. For me it is so interwoven, the traumatic events in my life and the graces that brought me through. Of course, survivors all have different journey’s, ALL of them valid. From all faiths and none, around the world. I have huge respect for what people are able to overcome in the most bleak of situations (did anyone see the story of that blind boy in Yemen?), people are incredible and able to come to terms with horrors like abuse in many different ways. Mine is absolutely not the only way, I am just sharing it because it was my experience. Your experiences, your journey and coming to terms as you say is just as valid, and I am so glad you have been able to come to terms with it. Just as it is those who are able to make their own peace with such traumas.

As far as failing to answer the sincere, repeated prayers of a small child. Ovine, what can I say? It makes me sick. I wish with all my heart you had never been through that. That none of us had. I was that small child too. My prayers went unanswered and no-one stepped in to save me either. I really do believe that god did prevent me from killing myself though, as it was a serious attempt. I won’t say there was some kind of grand purpose as I don’t buy into this idea. I can’t give you the answer, just like I don’t have the answer for why it appears god intervenes directly in some situations (my friend with the broken back) and others not (us as kids). I can only share my walk and how I felt god helped put me back together. Please understand I am not saying this is the only way, and I would never be arrogant in arguing that. I respect everyone has their own journey and wouldn’t (and don’t) try to explain away the experiences of others, and would never say people haven’t tried hard enough, or studied hard enough, are too angry or haven’t prayed from the heart (eg in the example of the prayer dare) I certainly wouldn’t dismiss them. A prayer like this is just a suggested tool for seekers and not a cure all, as I can only draw on my experience and those of other Christians that the god we know is a loving god, and waits for and longs for a chance to meet with us (like in the story of the Prodigal son). I respect and believe everyone’s journey has equal value and validity.

As I said previously it is a sad fact that Christians have done a bad job representing Jesus and what he is like. The words failed and dismally come to mind. People have called themselves Christian and done the most abhorrent things, like in your case Ovine. Please try not to judge Jesus based on how we’ve failed though, as AlexaShutUp has pointed out there are actually some of us out there who represent him much better. It puts me in mind of Jesus saying that not everyone who calls on him “Lord, Lord” (“haven’t we done xyz in your name?” etc) will enter the kingdom of heaven. It may be the case for so called self labelled Christians who have assumed they can do whatever they want in life (including child abuse) and get away with it, because they think they’ve got their ‘free-pass’ from the cross and that it gives them some kind of immunity. I think these people will have bit of a shock tb honest(!)

Please understand it is so hard to come on here and share such intimate details like on my last post, these are things I have never disclosed to anyone except my husband and counsellor. I was in tears writing it. They are the biggest battle I have ever faced and lasted decades, I am still living with the affects as many survivors do. I have had personal healing for much of it but not all. I understand you are questioning god and the Christian faith, and have every right to express your thoughts and feelings. I am only human though, I am completely imperfect and flawed and don’t have all the answers you deserve. I have always struggled with self confidence and certainly don’t put myself on any kind of pedestal for having all the answers. I can only share my walk and hope it might give some hope to others who have been through similar experiences. I have tried to honestly share some of the Christian perspective and my own experiences. If there is anything else you would like to ask me please feel free, but please be kind. I respect your non-belief points of view (as I said before, in the past this was me too).

Thanks, @AlexaShutUp. It's honestly frighteningly common, I know so many other people with not-dissimilar stuff.

@Jellyfishnchips, I do appreciate that it's difficult for you to share that. Thank you. I would caution against putting more out there online than you are able to bear -- I mean, as a general principle.

I should say that having been abused has absolutely nothing to do with my rejection of Christianity -- I offered it mere as an instance of someone having prayed with absolutely sincerity, fervour and unquestioning belief, and not being answered, a refutation, if you like of those 'dare to open yourself up to prayer' challenges that have featured on the thread.

As Christians, we are called to follow the example of Jesus and to be humble. A combination of the times we live in and the human ego makes this quality increasingly rare it would seem, both for Christians (I’ve seen plenty of handwringing false humility) and non Christians alike. I do agree with AlexaShutUp that God certainly does not need a PR team and that some Christians have not understood that we are not Christ himself, but we are his disciples, here to represent him by our attitudes, behavior and gently planting a seed where we can. It is for God only to water that seed and well meaning, but over enthusiastic harassment by Christians will understandably have the polar opposite effect. I also believe that the basic tenets of the Bible are as relevant today as they have always been throughout the ages and it is not for God to adapt to the times we live in, it’s for us to adapt to how God wants us to live. There is a spiritual battle going on and it’s interesting to see that people like to blame God, the force for good and not the enemy, who wants nothing more than for people not to believe and instead puts a spoke in the wheel by using the cult of the self and the false freedoms that it can offer. If anyone thinks evil doesn’t exist, we have the Holocaust, numerous atrocities throughout history carried out by individuals, groups, corporations etc. I firmly believe we see but a small part of the picture and only that which we are capable of understanding. God has the full picture, the whys and the wherefores as well as the timescale, He knows how x will bring about y and result in z in order that His plan is fulfilled. We as believers are called to have faith, a faith based on his promises and for many Christians, supported by our own personal experiences of having felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and seen Christ at work in our lives. It’s natural to want to share that with others and to want others to experience the same. There is nothing in it for us by sharing our experiences other than happiness if others respond with interest. The rest is between themselves and Christ and there should be no sense of believers ‘earning brownie points’ or button shining because someone has chosen to learn more. There is also subtle difference between faith which is ones personal walk withChrist and religion which in its simplest form is the tenets and rules ( remember the Pharisees) Finally, I believe there is plenty of historical evidence to support the Bible and even read objectively as a history of the Jewish people and Israel alone, it stands up to scrutiny for those interested in history, Christian or not.

Sorry, forgot paragraphs!

@pantherrose - You may believe that bible stands up to historical scrutiny but it is a widely and fiercely debated topic as to whether what bits, if any, do. It’s a subject people devote their life to studying and there is by no means any consensus. Whilst you have stated it as such, your belief is not a fact.

I’d really like to share fathers love letter with you, it is a compilation of paraphrased Bible verses from Genesis to Revelation that are presented in the form of a love letter:

[quote Jellyfishnchips]I’d really like to share fathers love letter with you, it is a compilation of paraphrased Bible verses from Genesis to Revelation that are presented in the form of a love letter:

[/quote] @Jellyfishnchips, you don't think it's telling that to get four minutes and forty seconds of declarations of love involved picking and choosing from the entire Bible, and assembling fragments thought to have been composed several centuries apart?

And does it not give you pause that it would be equally possible to get 4 minutes 40 seconds of a 'letter' that equally represents God as a genocidal lunatic, featuring anything from Isaiah saying that when the 'day of the Lord' comes, the haughty will have their babies dashed to pieces in front of them, their wives raped and their houses looted to Jesus saying in Matthew that he has come not to bring peace but a sword, and to set children and against their parents and parents against their children' (which doesn't nicely with the Kindly Dad God side of things)?

(And of course you could easily produce hours and hours of the dreary mess that is lots of the rest of the Bible -- endless genealogies written by people so obsessed with racial purity that they make the KKK look lax, lengthy disputes about women and land, dietary instructions, mad folk remedies for skin complaints and how to avoid pissing off an extremely volatile deity etc etc.)

This thread is the very opposite of evangelism.

[quote Jellyfishnchips]I’d really like to share fathers love letter with you, it is a compilation of paraphrased Bible verses from Genesis to Revelation that are presented in the form of a love letter:

[/quote] Well, I'm convinced.

@Jellyfishnchips - the bible is not proof of the bible.

OP I've found the discussion very helpful. It's helped me to think about a Christian belief in God and how that stands in opposition to a secular view on God.

We pray to God "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven". The Christian worldview does not expect the world to be perfect but we hope for a time when that can happen. We look forward to the coming of God's kingdom on Earth which could be a literal new Jerusalem arriving on the clouds or a practical individual level of being the change you want to see in the world. I certainly prefer a practical approach. Can I recommend NT Wright "Surprised by Hope" which talks about this in more detail? He's a bishop and academic but its one of his popular books so is quite readable.

Also I will pm you.