I'm a born-again christian single parent - AMA

[midwifeinthemaking]

Just that really - would love to answer any questions, dispel myths etc.

I know. I can't comment . I haven't experienced it. My heart goes out to them. I don't have the answer.
I can respect "I don't know" more than the "because he has a PLAN. It's part of His PLAN" because frankly describing my child to me (not you pp but people irl) as some bit-cog in God's great plan that involves me sending my child awayfor life saving surgery and not theirs frankly pisses me off.

I have friends who have suffered more greviously than I hope I ever will and their faith IS a comfort. Knowing that they'll be together again, that they're safe now with God etc and I'd never ever question the only thing that keeps them sane. But o find the worst for "but it happens for a REASON we just can't know" are ones who have suffered comparatively little.

My best friend returned to faith and these discussions got to the point where it was stop talking or ruin our friendship because that's all she had. It's his plan. He knows best. It happens for a reason. It's meant to happen. Because God said so. Because God has a plan and on and on in circles

I don’t interpret anything in the bible as God saying has a specific plan for us. The promise I see is God will always be present in our lives, if we reach out to him, in good times and bad. God offers comfort, strength and fellowship.

The promise I see is God will always be present in our lives, if we reach out to him, in good times and bad.

I reach out to God (even Gods on the odd occasion). I've researched so many different forms of religion, prayer and spirituality and none of it has ever "been present", even though I have attempted to dedicate myself to it wholly. Why does God speak to you and not me?

I don’t interpret anything in the bible as God saying has a specific plan for us. The promise I see is God will always be present in our lives, if we reach out to him, in good times and bad. God offers comfort, strength and fellowship

But the wheel goes round - how do we reach out to God? Through prayer. If we pray, we reach out, especially in bad times. Why are we reaching out? Comfort, strength and fellowship? Would a seriously ill child prompt you to ask God for this? If we pray to ask for things, wouldn't you ask for them to be well, not die? And why wouldn't God, if we pray to ask, intervene?

If God is not interventional then why pray if he will not react or respond? If we pray because God will respond, he is interventional, and therefore why not intervene and save a seriously ill child?, for example?

How many times have people been at their church service, with a priest reading a sick list, or updates, with a request to pray they get better, pray their health improves, pray for sick, pray for the struggling, pray an operation for a parishioner goes well. If God won't I tervenr, why are we praying for these things?

@JoyOrbison, it's all more mental gymnastics, isn't it? I think people pray for stuff because it's comforting to believe that there is a benevolent God who will help us, but then there has to be an explanation for the times when he doesn't help us.

More cognitive dissonance...

@ncbby, not sure, but he doesn't speak to me either.

AlexaShutUp

Yes, absolutely agree. The comfort to reach out to a higher deity, omnipresent, all knowing, powerful... But, oh, all those prayers didn't help, they weren't answered... Then all the wishy washy "It's part of a plan" "God gives suffering to those he knows can bear it" Ummm... Ah... There are so many situations it would be appalling to apy to, but hey, that's how it's sold...

Prayer is not a tool to test God's existence. It is how you develop your relationship with Him, almost like a therapist to guide you through life . It is not a genie in a bottle scenario where you can ask for what you want and you will get it. You have to heed that God's will be done, he knows better . Some prayers are answered in the way you hoped for, others are not. Some Christians boast that life is easier having their faith, I would argue quite the opposite is true . Matthew 7 v 14 " for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it"

@Rubiales678

Prayer is not a tool to test God's existence. It is how you develop your relationship with Him, almost like a therapist to guide you through life . It is not a genie in a bottle scenario where you can ask for what you want and you will get it. You have to heed that God's will be done, he knows better . Some prayers are answered in the way you hoped for, others are not. Some Christians boast that life is easier having their faith, I would argue quite the opposite is true . Matthew 7 v 14 " for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it"

A therapist who never says anything? A therapist you have to hope is even listening, because there’s no evidence he is?

Hi AlexShutUp, sorry I wanted to reply back quicker but has been busy day. So to answer some of the points raised, all very good points. I don’t believe that good things can only come from god, because of course we enjoy lots of good things in life and can do great good to others etc. Just that god IS these good things, because they are his nature and the expression of his person all wrapped up together, so heaven is all these good things because it is who he is. There are many bible verses that show gods nature (also what heaven is like) my favourites include, 1 John 4:7 - 21 “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from god, and whoever loves has been born of god and knows god. Anyone who does not love does not know god, because god IS love”, and 1 John 1:5 “ This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light and in him there is no darkness at all”.

Re: children suffering, so firstly I don’t think free will equates to bad choices in my mind. It equates to both good choices and bad, but we don’t need to debate the effects of good choices as these don’t have harmful affect. As I understand it, the exercise of free will doesn’t cause children to suffer and die directly, not all human choices are bad ones, we can be loving and do all manner of wonderful things, but the truth is that evil and corruption is rife all around us and we see it in people’s attitudes, words, actions, communities, governments. Just watch the news - scams, murders, child abuse and injustices are constantly with us. So it is more to do with that we are living in a fallen world and the suffering and death (including innocents) is a consequence of sin. This is why god hates sin, because it produces death. Ultimately, eternal separation. God is very active and cares a great deal about our suffering, but he cannot prevent people making bad and damaging choices which harm themselves and others. We are living with the consequences of the whole of human history exercising free will. I heard it once said that with an outstretched hand we can lift someone up or close our fist and hurt them - the choice is ours, help or hurt, love or hate. I have also searched out and grappled with these issues as the extent of human suffering is beyond awful, innocent kids suffering (and people of all ages actually) why don’t you just turn up in person god and undo all the horror(!). What I learnt is this, god did turn up and do something, and something none of us could do as parents which is give up his child to suffer and die for us. Jesus chose to die and take our place so we could have life. It has been eloquently described as the ‘Divine exchange’.

Regarding the choice to be Christian or not you are absolutely right, it is not a choice if you don’t believe it, there is no point and I certainly wouldn’t advocate lying. Everyone is free to believe as they wish. I would like to make the distinction between following Jesus and following a religion, as they are different things. I don’t consider myself religious, but follow Jesus and have a personal walk with him and believe the bible. You don’t have to be a Christian to have a view on Jesus though - everyone does, Christian or not! It comes down to who do you believe him to be. That is the choice. Before he was crucified, Jesus asked his disciples ‘Who do you say that I am?’. According to the bible there will be Judgement after this life for individuals and nations and Jesus will be Judge. So when we stand before him that day, we will be asked the question, ‘Who did you say that I was?’. I feel it will come down to how we answer this, and not what we call ourselves, or label ourselves, whatever religion or secular life we’ve led, our sexuality etc but what you have believed in your heart.

People really struggle with the concept of a loving god as Judge. I did, and especially as a new Christian. It is a difficult one to get to grips with. But without judgement there is no justice. Our sense for a need for justice when crimes are committed is deeply ingrained, if someone is murdered or brutalised the cry goes up for justice and it is the same in heaven. It’s why the bible is full of teaching on how we should treat others rightfully, as every person has great worth and value. There is a way to describe it: There is a high court case and the criminal is standing in the docks, the evidence against him is indisputable, he is found guilty. The judge loves the man, he is his friend, but he is Judge and must pass the just sentence. So the gavel comes down. But then the Judge takes off his wig, steps down from his judgement seat and walks over the to the man he loves. He stands in his place in the docks and says ‘I will take his punishment’.

God is vengeful against sin in that he hates the wrongs that have been done to you, to me, and all people (and to the world; animals, environment etc). But he does not want to see us suffer for our mistakes or punish us for them, he bore them all on the cross so we don’t have to. He stepped down and stood in the docks for us. Our choice is simple, we have all done things wrong and made mistakes, will we take the sentence ourselves or get a ‘stand in’? In the bible Jesus is described as ‘heavens spotless lamb’. Other religions offer many different views and great morality, but Jesus is unique in that there is no other who offers to stand in our place to take our penalty.

Sadly many roads do not lead to heaven, it is described as ‘narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it, but broad is the highway that leads to destruction and many find it’. I’m sorry but being kind and doing good is not enough to blot out the things we’ve done wrong. If being kind was enough, Jesus would not have had to die.

In answering the ideal parent description I am referring to his nature as described in the bible and my own personal experience of him. What people might not know is that Jesus is still showing up in person around the world and intervening to save lives and heal. People could argue this is all made up, but countless thousands of people testifying of him and being healed, often of terminal or life long conditions. Contrary the recruit, recruit, recruit view this is just not true, it is nothing to do with ‘getting people’ for the sake of it and the idea is a bit strange. I do understand cults can do this and actively recruit, but not born again believers. It actually comes at great personal cost to us to share Jesus, we get abused and mocked and spat on. The truth is there is no reward or gain for us to share our faith, most of the Christians I’ve known are persecuted for it, and ripped apart (a bit like on this forum!) and yes it would be easier to just say nothing! In other countries people are being tortured for their faith and locked up for it or killed - just like in the days of the apostles and early first century church. So why do it? Why did the apostles do it? Most were imprisoned and horribly killed for sharing the gospel. Before Jesus’s death they were all cowards and hid away. Peter denied him and ran off. It was only when Jesus was resurrected and met with them that they spoke out. They certainly didn’t do it for jollys or to just ‘get the numbers’ up! None profiteered, why die a torturous death for something you know is a lie? Why bother putting this on mumsnet when I could be pleasing myself doing whatever? I don’t gain from it and have never made a penny (in fact the opposite). There are unfortunately corrupt preachers out there who have made money to feather their own nest, and this is not at all Christian and very damaging as it gives a terrible representation of Jesus. People are not perfect, Christians are not perfect (I was bullied at church as a teen!) I am not perfect, it is more reason as to why I need his grace every day. I know more insults will be thrown, but we do it because Jesus found us and gave us life. He doesn’t want us to die and we don’t want people (especially the ones we love) to die either. So do children still suffer and die? Yes. Does god care and intervene? Yes, but not every child survives and I don’t think I will ever know why some do and some don’t, but I do know we are loved and wanted more than we can imagine, but we are also living in a fallen world.

I have also struggled with the permanence of hell, as eternity for those who go there. It is unthinkable. But however awful and horrifying the concept, I accept it is true. Christians who don’t are choosing to ignore all the scriptures where Jesus clearly states this in black and white. Jesus actually spoke more about hell than heaven. He would not have chosen to suffer and die on the cross if there was nothing to save us from. The bible descriptions of it and even the testimonies of those who have experienced it firsthand via death or vision, made it really clear beyond shadow of doubt that it is a place you would not wish your worst enemy go to, even for one minute. Again, if there were no consequences for sin then god would not be just, he is loving but also holy and a just judge. Imagine if someone murdered your child and god shrugs and says ‘never mind, no penalty’. His nature is love and also Justice. The bible shows us that the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23) but, the good news is that the gift of god is eternal life through Jesus Christ. which is why the emphasis is making people aware of their choices in this life, and how it affects the next. Jesus chose to go to the cross and die, he suffered unimaginable pain in the process not just physical torture but spiritual separation from god as he took the sins of the world upon himself and ‘became sin’, he did all this to take our place. I understand why people might see this as monstrous, god not saving everyone from hell, but it is biblical truth, it is a real place and god passionately wants to save us from that end, but he cannot force. He holds the door open though, and offers free entry for all who want to come in.

God is so misunderstood. As Christians we do an awful job of representing him. The great thing is we can all know him for ourselves if we want to. He can answer all our questions and more. There is one simple thing you can ask which is ‘God if you are real, please make yourself known to me’. He will never fail to answer an honest seeker.

A therapist who never says anything? A therapist you have to hope is even listening, because there’s no evidence he is?

Yes, this ^^. From my experience, a therapist isn't doing their job if the only thing they provide is a vague presence - sometimes not even that, it seems. Might as well seek counselling from my cat.

(I'm being flippant but this complete devotion to blind faith and avoidance of any kind of logic / evidence seems so foreign to me).

You have to heed that God's will be done, he knows better

Yeah, I don't buy this. If God exists, I'm afraid he is just wrong sometimes. When you look at the extent of evil in the world and the unspeakable suffering that is sometimes piled onto innocent people, it is simply not conceivable that it is all part of some grander plan. No loving God would do that.

You have to heed that God's will be done, he knows better

So we shouldn't ask via prayer? So parents of seriously ill children shouldn't pray for them to live, for example? It's God's will and he knows better? So a seriously ill child is God's Will? So are you saying God is an interventional God as this I'll child is his will? And by being interventional he chose to ignore prayers that are a cry for help?

So the hundreds, if not thousands of churches, on the Sunday morning mass, at the end, reading the bulletin, asking for the congregation to pray for Mrs Smith's operation to go well, to pray that localised flooding will quickly recede, to pray that wars will cease in war torn lands, to pray that the church fete will be success, is anyone telling all these priests they shouldn't be doing this? That you don't pray to ask?

See, as a Catholic that is lapsing, it is this vague 'it's God's plan' evasive trite reply that riles me... And why religion is rapidly declining and churches are closing with buildings being sold off. But that is part of God's plan I guess?

This bit is probably wrong. However people can believe what they like if they don't harm others and obey the civil law.

"What people might not know is that Jesus is still showing up in person around the world and intervening to save lives and heal. People could argue this is all made up, but countless thousands of people testifying of him and being healed, often of terminal or life long conditions. "

Sorry, just butting in again because I found that response interesting and controversial.

Just watch the news - scams, murders, child abuse and injustices are constantly with us. So it is more to do with that we are living in a fallen world and the suffering and death (including innocents) is a consequence of sin. This is why god hates sin, because it produces death

So why did God create sin, or at least open the door for their to be capacity for sin? The ideal that loving only comes from free will is based on the fact that we already have free will (supposedly) and live our lives accordingly, whereas in a perfect paradise there's every chance there could be a perfect love and moral conviction without the need for the tests of sin with Adam and Eve.

God is very active and cares a great deal about our suffering, but he cannot prevent people making bad and damaging choices which harm themselves and others.

Why not? He is omniscient. He can create an entire world and all of humanity, but not prove himself as real in order to prevent real horrible suffering?

What I learnt is this, god did turn up and do something, and something none of us could do as parents which is give up his child to suffer and die for us.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, and all of the psychological torture that comes along with that faith. God has also killed other people's children, seemingly directly or indirectly. "Something none of us could do as parents" seemed to be completely decided by someone else.

But he does not want to see us suffer for our mistakes or punish us for them, he bore them all on the cross so we don’t have to.

So what is the purpose of Hell?

There is one simple thing you can ask which is ‘God if you are real, please make yourself known to me’. He will never fail to answer an honest seeker.

I have tried to speak to God, many times. One of which was inside an ambulance, begging God to either send me a sign or let me die. I have never had purer intentions or more faith in that moment, and nothing happened - no lightbulb, no connection, no spiritual awakening. If he's up there, he was willing to stake a bet on my life.

One of which was inside an ambulance, begging God to either send me a sign or let me die.

To be fair you are here today writing this post - is that not a sign for you

Would the poster not having to be in an ambulance be a better sign?

t I do believe everything in the Bible as true

I don't follow how you square this with not taking it literally. If it is true, why would you not take it literally?

Because the world is fallen it means disease.

I don't follow this, @LifeExperience, or what it has to do with free will and love. What does free will have to do with children born with horrible conditions which give them a short, incredibly painful life? What loving God would allow that to happen?

@Jellyfishnchips, thank you for taking the time to reply and actually engage with the questions that I raised. I do appreciate that. Again, there is so much in your post that I find problematic (and internally inconsistent), it is hard to know where to start.

So it is more to do with that we are living in a fallen world and the suffering and death (including innocents) is a consequence of sin.

So the suffering of innocents is a consequence of sin. In the case of a child who experiences suffering and then dies as a result of cancer, whose sin is that a consequence of? You have used the word innocent, so I assume you do not believe that it is the child's sin? Is it the parents' sin? Eve's sin? Or some more general human sin for which nobody is actually directly responsible? Why does that sin cause that particular child to suffer? What is the exact causal link? This doesn't really compute for me at all.

Then there is the peculiar idea that god gave his son to die for our sins. Quite why this makes sense to people, I don't quite know, but putting that aside for a minute (I'll come back to it), why do you feel it is that Jesus dying was apparently enough to atone for all the sins of mankind - all the rapes, murders and other atrocities - and yet it is somehow not enough to atone for the relatively small misdemeanor of not believing in God? You talk about justice, but it's a funny kind of justice that allows forgiveness and redemption for the most heinous of crimes, as long as they accept Jesus, while those who have led good lives in which they have done good deeds will be rewarded with eternal damnation for failing to pay lip service to God? That doesn't strike me as the approach taken by a just and loving God, but rather the actions of a crazed narcissist that cares more about the praise and adulation that he gets than he does about good and evil. Why does God care more about people praising him and acknowledging his greatness than whether they are good people?

With regard to choice, you seemed initially to accept that it is not a choice if someone just doesn't believe something, but later in that paragraph, you say that in the end, it all comes down to what you believe in your heart. I believe in my heart that god is not real and that jesus was just a man. I don't have any choice in that belief, it's merely the truth as I see it. I cannot "follow Jesus" if I don't believe in him. And yet, in your frame of reference, that means that I cannot be "saved". Do you feel that's fair and reflective of a system designed by a loving God? Do you think it's my fault that I don't believe?

And then you talked about judgment and the need for justice. You say that there is no justice without judgment, and that our need for justice is deeply ingrained. You invoked how I might feel if my child was murdered. I agree that a natural human response would be to seek justice. If we accept that such "justice" is necessary, then why would we let the murderer off the hook by letting Jesus take his punishment instead? If a judge offered to take a punishment for my child's murder instead of the murderer, would I feel that justice had been served? Of course I bloody wouldn't, because the murderer has got off scot free. That is not justice at all. Of course, the alternative view is that god is more evolved that human beings, and is therefore able to exercise mercy instead of justice. This makes more sense to me, because it is more in line with the actions of a loving parent, but then, if god wants to be merciful, why doesn't he just do it? Why does he decide that Jesus needs to die to atone for people's sins? Why does anyone have to die for them? I mean, what is that all about? If he is god and he is omnipotent, why doesn't he just bypass that whole thing and exercise his mercy.

You say that Jesus is unique and that no other religion offers up someone who can stand in and take our penalty, but I would venture to suggest that it was never necessary to have someone else to take our penalty. If my child transgresses in some way, I can choose to put them in time out, or I can choose to forgive them and let it go. If I choose the latter, I don't have to do the time out myself instead, or find someone else to do it, it just doesn't happen. Why can't God just scrap the penalty instead of making his son go through some weird sort of sacrifice which isn't really a sacrifice because he has every intention of bringing him back to life again. It doesn't make any sense.

Then you talk about hell and you say that god would not be just if there were no consequences for sin, while simultaneously reminding us that Christians get a get-out-of-jail-free card in the form of Jesus. So actually, it seems that the only "sin" that your just God cares about is the sin of not believing in him. All other crimes will be wiped out by Jesus. Again, a funny sort of justice if you ask me.

You say that people have nothing to gain from sharing their faith, and that it is often costly to them. I accept that people sometimes get a hard time on threads like this.You say that there is nothing in it for you, but I'm not sure about that. I sometimes think that people who invest time in trying to convert or persuade others are often trying really hard to convince themselves of the rightness of the path that they have chosen. It's a way of trying to work things out in their own heads.

Finally, you say that god will never fail to answer an honest seeker. I'm afraid that I can tell you that that is categorically not true, whatever you may wish to believe. I spent years trying to believe and asking for help, but it was not forthcoming. Deep down, I always knew the reason why...he wasn't listening because he simply wasn't there.

Hi AlexaShutUp, I’m up (4 am, sigh) been one of those nights of multiple settles for my toddler so have given up for now and just in the lounge with a piece of toast. I’m happy to chat with you. Again the points you raise are interesting and valid, shared by many I’m sure and deserve answers. I wish we could sit and have a chat properly as it’s so hard to have a proper dialogue on forums like this, and written words don’t always come across in the way they are meant. Listening and taking on board others views is important to me and includes people of no faith and other world religions. It sounds bonkers but bloody love people, even the angry spiky ones(!) not that I think this is you, just have had my share! Helping roles has been my choice of jobs and in terms of getting something from it this is definitely true of being a carer and support worker, as you do get a sense of reward for helping. As far as being a Christian and sharing faith though, there is no reward as we get predominantly negative impacts, a bit like standing in a fire. Referring back to the apostles and what they went through, modern day believers are in the same boat in many ways, people really are dying in other countries and getting brutally persecuted, persecution comes in a less visible way here in the uk too, it comes anytime we stand up to share faith. My motivation is not to convert or persuade, people don’t get talked into belief, for me I am only mirroring what Jesus says about himself and standing for him. I can’t see there is a benefit for me in taking the time to answer things on here, there are many other things I could chose to do instead at 4am (getting some actual sleep being one!). I was without any faith too until I met the person of Jesus and that is the difference, meeting him personally. It is something you cannot get by trying to generate or find faith within yourself or by visiting a church etc. For me to deny Jesus would be just as ridiculous as to deny that I’ve met my own parents.

As I mentioned before, the vast majority of my family and friends are non-Christian and I absolutely respect them and love them to bits. If you were to meet me you might be surprised, I am just a regular mum. I don’t see myself as special and I don’t preach (this is the most I’ve shared about the Christian faith and my experience of it, ever I think) but I do answer questions my friends have from time to time as honestly as I can, which is bible based and drawing on my own experience of Jesus. I don’t see myself as deserving of heaven, but have merely accepted the Grace offered me, not only because I don’t want to wind up in hell (who would) but much more than that, the person of Jesus and the beautiful unconditional love he gives, his care, his friendship and understanding of all my faults and flaws (and loves me anyway) I just could not be without. I would not want to be without him for one day.

Someone said about being in the back of an ambulance and I have also been in this position 2 years ago, bleeding uncontrollably and thought I would never see my daughter again. Did I cry out and question god in that crisis ‘why is this happening?’ Yes absolutely. Did he stop the injury there and then and instantly pull me out of that situation? No. Did I even hear his audible voice in my distress? No. Did I feel his peace? Yes. As strange as it sounds I felt his peace in the midst of that crisis, and he brought me through, but I went through a world of pain to get there. All I can say is he brought me through. I have reflected that at the time in hospital there was also a man in the bed next to mine in great need and distress, he was dying of cancer and in total freefall agony (blood curdling screams of the like I have never heard). I offered to pray for him and he said yes and my husband and I stayed with him, held his hand and the drugs he was given eventually kicked in and he had relief. In this life there is pain (terrible terrible pain) and beauty, sickeningly polar opposites. We suffer, Jesus suffered and he understands and relates to suffering. Those we love die, we see good people die and it breaks our hearts. God promises in his Word that he will give us ‘beauty for ashes’ and a cup of joy for mourning.

It is an interesting point you say about good people and being good. The thing is it is not about our standard of good, but god’s standard, which is holiness and far exceeds the ‘good’ we are capable of. We can all be good at times, but can we sustain being good all the time? Everyday? For a while lifetime? I know I can’t, it’s impossible. Even the most devout Jewish followers of the Law (that is the 10 commandments given to Moses and other laws given in the Torah) were unable to follow the law all the time. And the temple sacrificial system came in but that’s another topic.

So looking at some other things you raised. So I would never say it is anyone’s fault for not believing , and faith itself is described as a gift. But I would like to put this to you, as human beings we don’t have knowledge of absolutely everything in the universe, at best let’s say the most brilliant minds in history have known and understood say 10 -20% of everything in the whole universe? Is it possible then, that god could exist in the other 90%? If you know, as you say in your heart, that god does not exist please consider for a moment whether he may exist in the other 90% of things in the entire universe you don’t know about? Is that perhaps worth exploring. So about the child who suffers and dies - who’s fault (ie sin) is it? Well I would argue it is not down to a specific sin as sadly diseases are in the world (and symptom of a sick and fallen world) and they afflict any people and kill. Many diseases do, not all result in death but we only have to look at Covid to know that plenty of people are suffering and dying from diseases. From the biblical view point diseases are in the world because death is reigning in the world. And god shows that the route and product of death is sin. There were no diseases in the garden of Eden before the fall, there was no death and in fact no separation from god as Adam and Eve walked and talked with him. Once sin and death entered the scene, people suffered and died including children. Sin is not punishment from god, but the result from us turning our backs and choosing our own way. I could disect what particular sins are if that helps; Murder and deliberate harm or abuse of another person is no surprise, neither is stealing, lying, committing adultery, worshipping idols (I understand this would be a hard one for people to get if they don’t believe in god anyway), but basically we all got busy being selfish and doing evil stuff to eachother and the world. Then began the chain of events that formed human history, with all it’s diseases, wars, corruption and atrocities. So it is not as straightforward as this sin caused that child’s suffering, diseases are symptomatic of a fallen world.

About Jesus dying I believe the bible that says he (and only he) was able to atone for us as he was without sin. Going back to the example of a murderer of a child, it would be outrageous if they went unpunished, justice requires punishment, I’m just saying the bible teaches that Jesus took that punishment on himself so the murderer could be forgiven. What if you were the murderer? What if your child was the murderer, and desperately needed that get-out-jail-free? The salvation Jesus offers is not a free pass ‘only for Christians’, he really does offer it to anyone and everyone, regardless of who they are and what they’ve done. One of his names is ‘the door’ and another ‘the way’. Perhaps people look upon it (Jesus) so scornfully as it seems suspicious to have something of worth given free (do we reason it must be false or a scam(?) but the truth is while it is free for us it cost Jesus everything. Even before he reached the cross Jesus was ripped apart, his bones ‘laid bare’ and he was barely recognisable as human. He did not have to die, he could have chosen to remove himself from that terrible torture at any time, but he CHOSE to die. He chose us, he still chooses us. He knew the cost beforehand, and he still chose to go to the cross, even the disciples couldn’t grasp it and believe him when he said he was until it happened. Why though why? Why did he need to die, why did he chose to?? The simple answer is it is because of love. because his parent love could not bear to see you stand in the docks and take the penalty. Can we imagine the heart of god allowing his son to go through this for us. But yet this is what we are told happened, and was the ultimate ‘once and for all’ atonement covering given. So there it is, the bible gospel accounts describe it in detail for any who want to know more (and the account of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection are also evidenced in non religious manuscripts of the time, historical texts that stand alone and agree with the gospel accounts). It has also the personal experience of countless other believers around the world, even those paying with their lives in totalitarian regimes.

Absolutely, god IS mercy and he does bypass judgement by standing in our place. His mercy is woven through the bible, old and new testaments and has been my predominant experience of him. I would say that Jesus life, death and resurrection is the very expression of mercy. One of my favourite songs is ‘You delight in showing Mercy’ (and mercy triumphs over judgement) by Amanda Cook, here’s the link if you fancy a listen

To echo the saying of late CS Lewis, “A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ...”

I have just realised I have not answered all the particular points you raised Alexa, I am sorry, I am really tired now. Look I haven’t met you but if I did (and it wasn’t Covid!) you would find a warm welcome and I would happily offer you a listening ear and understanding of one, like you, who has not always believed. You are a beautiful person and I wish you all good things. Let’s talk more if you want to.

There’s no ‘historical account’ whatsoever that evidences the resurrection, @Jellyfishnchips.

I think what it boils down to is that it is easier to have faith that something greater than us has a plan, than admit that we are all just monkeys in shoes, on a rock spinning through space. In my view, there is no greater plan, things do not happen for a reason, we just try to make some sense of the chaos. It’s terrifying but also very freeing and I think makes life even more special than coming from a higher being. Imagine, we are a blip in evolution, as far as we know we are the only ones in the universe. That’s terrifying but incredible just in itself. I try to be a good person because I know everyone’s time on the the rock is short and we should make it as pleasant as possible.

If you need to believe that a higher power has a plan for us then I understand that. What I don’t understand is the need to create arbitrary rules required for this plan and then push these on others. Why does Anna having an abortion, Barry marrying Charlie or Diana eating pork have anything whatsoever to do with you. If you have true faith in the plan, I doubt these things will stop it. Many religious people shout ‘PERSECUTION’ at any criticism of their religion, but I wonder if they stop to think how insulting their view of others can be. “I’ll pray for you”, no. Do not diminish my suffering down to some part of a grand plan that in your eyes your God could choose to fix if he wanted to but I’m obviously not worthy enough. You’ve decided homosexuality is a sin? Fine only stick to dating people of the opposite sex. And please, please stop tying yourself in knots trying to “prove” your set of rules is the “right” one by citing your set of rules as proof. That is like me declaring magic is real because it’s in Harry Potter, oh Harry Potter is a work of fiction you say? Well it’s not because in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire it says... I know that’s not a perfect analogy and the bible has more historical context but it’s an example of the illogical loop many on this thread are using.

Thank you @Jellyfishnchips for taking the time to answer again. I hope that you managed to get some sleep.

I can tell that you are sincere in what you believe, and I guess it all seems to make sense in your mind, but it still makes no sense to me and we are kind of going round in circles.

Innocent children suffer because sin is in the world - we don't really know how one causes the other, but we're pretty sure it isn't God's fault.

We should accept the biblical account that it was necessary for Jesus to die to atone for our sins, rather than God deciding to just pardon us, because the Bible says so.

It would be outrageous for a murderer to go unpunished because justice requires punishment, but it's ok if they get a get-out-of-jail-free card from Jesus because you'd really want it if your child was the murderer.

Faith is a gift, but if you don't get given it, you're going to hell.

I'm glad that your faith provides comfort to you and I wish you well, but personally, I'm not able to paper over the inconsistencies, the lack of coherence and the tautological arguments. I totally accept your point that our understanding of the world is limited and there is much that we don't know, but I can only base my beliefs on what I observe, on what my rational mind tells me and on what I feel to be true. You will obviously do the same, as will all of the people of different faiths around the world. We're all pretty sure that we are right, but none of us actually have any more certainty than the others, even though we might feel that we do. Who knows, perhaps none of us have any of the answers.

To be fair you are here today writing this post - is that not a sign for you

No God who was all-loving or righteous would ever let me get into the depths of that pain, though. And I'm a lucky one - I've had an unfortunate life by normal standards but it is no way comparable to some of the things people have experienced in third-world countries, as an example. I survived through the skin of my teeth and using brute force. If God couldn't come to me and give me hope in the sign of an absolute crisis, he either doesn't exist or he picks favourites - that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. I wasn't even asking for my pain to be spared, just some kind of knowledge that that pain was worth something.