I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@twoHopes

The way I see it, the stories of detransitioners won't necessarily get through to someone if they genuinely believe there is such a thing as "true trans". If you think "well those people were never really trans in the first place...but I am". In fact I've seen stories of detransitioners just reinforce people's sense of trans identity as they think "they're nothing like me".

Unfortunately the "true trans"/"born in the wrong body" theory has got such a stronghold now, especially among young people, that it feels almost impossible to argue with. There was a time when stating "this person is a male in a female's body" would sound absurd...now you're regarded as absurd for questioning that view.

OP do you think it's strange that gender and sex are considered a fluid "spectrum" by the current trans ideology and yet cis/trans is considered a binary? That you're either one or the other? This makes no sense to me.

In response to your last paragraph I feel I am learning all the time and I don't have a clear handle on it all and what all the terminology not just means from a definition perspective but also unpicking what in means in the wider context you describe.

I have got my head around being a trans man and a trans woman, that makes sense. I can also understand what it means to be non binary. What I do struggle with and would need to understand more about is gender fluidity or the demi boy/demi girl labels.

I guess what that is describing is what you describe as binary - I am a man, I am a woman, I am neither.

I can see how sexuality is on a spectrum however as sexual tastes and stimuli are very individual.

This is as far as I have got with it I think!

Hi I have read most of the thread and thinking your dealing with it in an amazing way , I just wanted to ask you said you ds had been bullied since being little, do you think this is some kind of escape to the bullying (that your son thought subconsciously 'well if I was a boy they wouldn't bully me?').

@twoHopes

This is definitely food for thought as the use of the wrong pronouns is immensely triggering

At what point did the she/her pronouns start becoming triggering? Was there a specific event around that time?

You all ask very good questions!

It was after he decided that he wanted to live as a boy (sorry to use this expression I can see many of you don't like it as it appears meaningless) which to him means using male pronouns and using a male name. If someone doesn't use the correct pronouns/name it triggers the dysphoria and makes he feel like someone doesn't believe him or support his decision.

Can't re-quote your response but I'm not trans. I'm 43 and living as a gender non conforming (I suppose) bisexual female, diagnosed autistic at 40. Gradually the pieces of my identity are being figured out.

But I definitely liked to be perceived as a boy as a child and I had this notion that being male was just 'better' than being female and so I know I would've been vulnerable to believing I was meant to be a boy if that has been a widespread belief back then.

It doesn't make me male though. I never was. I absolutely believe that there are a small subset of the population who do believe themselves to be trans and social and medical transition is the best option for them because they can't resolve their dysphoria.

But I can't help feeling that there is a much larger group of people who are going through what many of us do, questioning the bollocks that gender stereotypes are, what it is to be human and going through the usual challenges of growing up, who are being led to believe that being born in the wrong body explains all their feelings and it doesn't.

And I can't subscribe to the notion that the age of onset is an indicator. Because I was young and that wasn't my experience at all. I didn't have enough life experience to know what I was feeling and what that meant. As human beings we are really poor at correctly attributing our inner states to causal factors. We get it wrong all the time. I remember studying that in psychology.

@Zzz1234

Hi I have read most of the thread and thinking your dealing with it in an amazing way , I just wanted to ask you said you ds had been bullied since being little, do you think this is some kind of escape to the bullying (that your son thought subconsciously 'well if I was a boy they wouldn't bully me?').

Again a valid question, he's not articulated that.

He has been bullied for being trans but all of the previous bullying was centred around his academic ability. He often talks about being beige in the classroom i.e. not standing out as that just makes him a target for arseholes.

There is also the idea that the youth care less/more about what gender/sex means and are playing with the concept and shaping their lives in the way that fits them best.

I couldn’t disagree more with this statement (not saying it’s your view, OP).

I find many young people incredibly intolerant of anyone with different views to them. And I say that as the parent of two young people in their 20s.

On topics of sex and gender I also find there is a lot of ageism, where younger feminists seem oblivious to the achievements of second wave feminists that they are now able to take for granted, and seem to think we’re out of touch because we don’t think people can change sex or that sex work is empowering for women.

It’s often young women who are calling women “cis”, “terfs” and “Karens” and it saddens me that they so often see other women as the enemy.

SAy something happened and your daughter had to go to prison would you be happy with her in a male prison? what about if they were in hospital would they be happy on a male only ward?

I recognise that Trans is very much a real phenomenon and I have nothing but support for the trans community.

OP this isn’t to be critical, however I can’t help wondering how 8 years old to question gender and 12 to come out as lesbian seems very young to be thinking about sexuality and gender. I completely understand that some people just know from a very early age but there seems to be so much emphasis on giving everything a label nowadays and exploring possibilities very early on when children are still developing and possibly experimenting.

At 12 I was going on bike rides and making dens (with all my boy mates) was often mistaken for a boy, (some girl said I was fit once) lived up to a boy stereotype with a boy cut, trainers, jeans and jumpers, was car mad. Attitude of ‘a girl can do whatever a boy does’. Found boys generally easier to get along with than girls, thought Barbies were beyond stupid, they made me feel sick and woozy, wanted to join the army. Remember having a little toolset and gender neutral play tent one Christmas as a tot. We were never particularly pigeon holed (Mum never really followed fashion and was a jeans and jumper kind of girl) however there was no emphasis on anything any different, we were just children. Fast forward 3-4 years, I never left the house without full make up, heels and hair was long. I’d made some decent girly friends, loved fashion, pink was my new favourite colour and actually really enjoyed being ‘girly’.

Don’t think there is anything wrong with some stereotypes if people are comfortable with them. I probably fulfill lots of stereotypes now and that’s cool. It’s obviously a very personal choice but I feel that some children can have too much too young - can’t help but think that it is easy for children to get confused, imagine it can be a bit of a rabbit hole for some if they start down a particular path and don’t know how to get off or don’t know how to deal with other feelings or emotions if they’re committed to a particular ideal.

I'm afraid that isn't true re: finding partners.

People may be more open minded and willing to use pronouns etc but the reality of sexuality remains. Lesbians want to be with female bodied people and straight women with male bodied people and bisexuals can be attracted to either potentially. When it comes to dating or sex trans people really struggle and are massively triggered by that reality.

There's tons of stuff on the internet by trans identified people claiming people are transphobic because eg a lesbian doesn't want to have sex with a biological male.

There have been surveys asking people of different sexualities if they would be willing to consider a person who identifies as the opposite sex and the results don't look good for trans people.

Just the other day I saw a male at birth trans person online lecturing people about how despite claiming to be allies lgb people were transphobic because they won't sleep with trans people.

People cannot help their sexuality or who they are attracted to and reality is people are attracted to males and/or females not identities

Yes i don,t see what a girl who is attracted to girls would want to go out with someone who appears as a guy. (Other then safe in the knowledge there not a guy so therefore not really excepting the person as a male. )

OP, a suggestion to help you with your musing about what labels like demiboy mean.

Consider it as just another type of identity label. Then go and find some people talking about their experience of their own identity labels in other, unsexed contexts.

Threads about "what class are you?" are good for this, because there are all sorts of stereotypes attached to being upper, middle, and working. The thing I always notice is: we all judge other people's class by a snapshot of material now, but we judge our own based on a combination of that snapshot and stereotypes. Both the stereotypes we subconsciously subscribe to, and the ones we know others may subscribe too. Result: the people who've shifted from their parents' class don't quite know how to comfortably identify because the labels for Us and Them have been undermined.

You'll find many parallels, which should be of use.

I'm afraid that isn't true re: finding partners

People may be more open minded and willing to use pronouns etc but the reality of sexuality remains. Lesbians want to be with female bodied people and straight women with male bodied people and bisexuals can be attracted to either potentially. When it comes to dating or sex trans people really struggle and are massively triggered by that reality

Agree. And this is because the body can’t lie. Even to be kind.

Like I said earlier in the thread - young people are not seeking to break down barriers but are instead looking for ever smaller boxes to fit themselves into. And becoming anxious when they can't find the right one.

It's like a twisted version of musical chairs.

If someone doesn't use the correct pronouns/name it triggers the dysphoria and makes he feel like someone doesn't believe him or support his decision.

This is one of the problems with children being encouraged or enabled to see themselves as the opposite sex. If your child were an adult, they may understand that the reason some people might misgender them is because they see a girl in front of them.

And what is it that your child thinks people don’t believe? That they are male? Because if that’s the case, they really are going to have to get used to that. And even people who say they are male are in all probability saying it so as not to upset your child.

@june2007

So what you cakes weren,t girly. Who cares? What does that prove. Maths and periodic table cakes show that yes perhaps she is a bit geeky and fits in with the ASD thing. But no relevance to being trans.

Yes, my kid was obsessed with dinosaurs. Relevant to ASD, not a sign she was secretly male all along. An interest in dinosaurs is available to both sexes!

@FamilyOfAliens

If someone doesn't use the correct pronouns/name it triggers the dysphoria and makes he feel like someone doesn't believe him or support his decision.

This is one of the problems with children being encouraged or enabled to see themselves as the opposite sex. If your child were an adult, they may understand that the reason some people might misgender them is because they see a girl in front of them.

And what is it that your child thinks people don’t believe? That they are male? Because if that’s the case, they really are going to have to get used to that. And even people who say they are male are in all probability saying it so as not to upset your child.

It's a recipe for psychological disaster to be reliant for one's wellbeing on others.

It's a terrible message to condone - that other's non-belief in your counter-factual identity has the power to harm and diminish you.

People simply cannot be coerced to believe the sun rises in the West. Or that night is day. Or that a female person is male. They can be socially conditioned to say it but oh boy, I cant think of a more damaging script to accept running in my child's head than that of 'people must believe me or they are harming me'.

If someone doesn't use the correct pronouns/name it triggers the dysphoria and makes he feel like someone doesn't believe him or support his decision.

But why should they believe a falsehood or delusion? People cannot change sex and it causes untold harms to pretend they can. They don't need to support decisions taken by other people either.

Agree with the above. You are quite deep into this belief set OP. Despite clearly trying to stand above it.

The news presenter India (willouby??) Who is mtf went on Big brother and the pronouns thing really got to them. But the fact is people din,t want to cal her a she because they new different. With the makeup yes she did pass as a women but somtimes India was shown with out and then I think you could see india for they were...A Man.

OP you may have read it already, or not think it relevant, but Lily Maynard's blog may be helpful? She had a daughter who wanted to transition and this is an account with the daughter's side too:
lilymaynard.com/

She's very gender critical, so you may feel uncomfortable reading it but thought I'd mention it.

Fraida the more you tell us about your child, the more confused I become about their condition.

Yesterday you said this about how your child described their condition:

Gender dysphoria for me is like I identify with my penis, but when I look down it isn’t there.

This made it sound as though the main issue was with the physical body feeling like it was 'wrong', and I thought it sounded a bit like BIID which is a condition where people think one of their body parts doesn't belong to them, and is believed by some be neurological in origin, so psychological treatment is unlikely to help.

Then today you said this:

DS: when I’ve medically transitioned and have a beard I might grow my hair long.

Me: but if you want long hair you could grow it now? Men/boys can have long hair, it’s no reflection on their masculinity

DS: I know and I agree but I need to pass now

This now looks as though your child's discomfort with their sex is about how they are perceived by others, which is completely different to the feeling that their body is wrong which would happen just as much in the absence of other people.

he decided that he wanted to live as a boy (sorry to use this expression I can see many of you don't like it as it appears meaningless) which to him means using male pronouns and using a male name.

Now you are saying that it is simply about using a male name and have others use male pronouns for them. Completely different again.

I'm not intending to be critical here, and I appreciate you sticking around and answering our questions, but I'm sure you can see that these different answers all seem to contradict each other.