I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

Marginalised groups are not purely about women though, other marginalised groups exist too. Trans people are definitely marginalised as I don’t think they have the same or equivalent rights if you like.

I gave the example of women not being able to identify out of their oppression but it applies equally people of colour not being able to identify as white to avoid racism. It was just one example.

OP, what rights do you believe trans people don’t already have and who are you comparing them with when you say they don’t have “equivalent rights”?

Yes it does make sense. My child has struggled with MH/suicidal ideation since the age of 8, and is also at Tier 3 on CAMHS. So I do totally get the angst and the fear. It is truly terrible to have a desperately unhappy child.

I do know that feeling that you will do almost anything if it will make your child happy again.

So is the issue here then not with people experiencing true dysphoria and transitioning as a result but those perhaps more on the margins ie. non binary, gender fluid people and so on? Not trying to be inflammatory but trying to understand?

Not quite.

It's more a case of: transition might an appropriate last-ditch option for a mental health condition causing unmanageable distress in a minority of cases.

You only work out whether transition is needed by exhausting all the psychotherapy options. This takes years to do effectively. And even then I'd say there's always a way, even if this or that individual can't seem to find the path to it right now.

The way the whole concept is framed - transition as a benign, first-line response to distress? It's making it harder, less likely, that individuals will find healthier ways to manage their condition, because it offers a magic fix-it which, ultimately, can never work without the long hard slog of psychotherapeutic personal growth.

The thought of a magic fix-it that evil outside forces are denying us, that's a powerful disincentive against learning to live with dysphoria and bringing it down to a subclinical level.

Doesn’t a member of a privileged group automatically become a member of a marginalised group when they transition though? I think trans people would fiercely argue that they are also part of a minority group that feels they have few rights. I know my son feels he has been relegated to a second class citizen at times

Absolutely and categorically no IMHO if you mean part of the same marginalised group. Of course they are marginalised but not due to their sex so they cannot self identify in a meaningful way as a woman. It is not helpful to lump all marginalised groups together as they erodes protection.

My issue with the "born in the wrong body" idea is two-fold:

1. There is no evidence for this claim. Every single study I've seen produced on this, even the ones explicitly trying to prove this theory, fail to do so.

And 2. We are telling young people that there is something innately, inescapably "wrong" with them. In no other circumstance would we tell a child they were somehow made "wrongly".

If trans adults feel the "born in the wrong body" analogy is helpful to them then that's entirely their prerogative. But I think this is a really unhelpful road to go down with questioning teenagers.

Several people were vocal about how this was ridiculous and too ‘woke’. So this makes me feel like some people think trans people shouldn’t exist at all and that is problematic and transphobic

This I can't agree with. Some spaces are segregated by sex for a good reason. Leaping from the statement that "transwomen should not be in women's changing rooms or sporting competitions" to your interpretation of this to mean "trans people shouldn't exist" is just wrong.

Trans people do exist do exist - in the sense that there are people who feel very certain that they ought to be the opposite sex. It doesn't mean they literally are though. And if you want me to accept that trans people exist - meaning some people exist who have the wrong brain for their body and should have been born in another body - then no I don't accept that those trans people exist.

Trans people exist in the sense that there are people out there including your child who feel better, for whatever reason, presenting as the other sex. But they are not literally and never will be the other sex. And nor is it the case that they should have been the opposite sex but for some odd mishap in the DNA. That's not what has happened. Trans people have a strong feeling - even a certainty - about their sexed bodies. And that feeling is entirely unconnected with reality.

This is where the terminology is so damaging. My trans son rather than my trans identified child or even trans identified daughter. It turns what the child believes to be the case into a statement of fact and it isn't. I understand why you have to use that terminology but it obscures the path to resolution every time.

You say your child has been buullkied. Well I exxpect their choices will be make it worse. I had a friend 9a man) he decided he was a girl. He chose a girls name and for a month or two wore girls clothes. then decided he wasn,t a girl. (No kidding) An chose a name suitable for both genders to be non binary. I think he is back to his original name. Peple do change their minds. Kids are impresionable. No we can not change sex. How many people have mutilated their boddies in an attempt to do so.

We don't tell people with visible, physical disabilities that they were born in the wrong body, and I think it would be considered emotionally abusive to do so.

I just find it it interesting. I've been literally in the same position as the OP, including a child hospitalized for suicidal ideation, and at no stage did anything other than trying to uncover and treat root causes appear to me as reasonable.

Even sitting with said child on the floor of an isolation room after they'd been sectioned did not make me decide that intrusive and irreversible meds and surgery were an answer, that females can really be male, or that I could only think on a micro level. Nor did the emotionally abusive 'better a live son than dead daughter' have any effect on me. It certainly did not make me over-estimate neurological 'evidence'.

I credit my feminism for making me question, in the first instance, why my child's distress was located in an urge to abandon her femaleness.

BlackWaveComing so sorry for what you have been through. Has the situation resolved itself as yet? I've a good friend who went through similar with her daughter. They had to allow her to completely drop out of school and change her name to an androgynous one. Away from her peers things gradually improved and she is so much happier now. She's come out as a lesbian to no-one's surprise.

@Fraida

So is the issue here then not with people experiencing true dysphoria and transitioning as a result but those perhaps more on the margins ie. non binary, gender fluid people and so on? Not trying to be inflammatory but trying to understand?

There is a very vocal group who have successfully pushed for trans people to be recognised on the basis that they say they are trans and therefore should be accepted and affirmed as such without question. They think the requirement to have any kind of gender dysphoria is problematic or insulting - if you feel like a girl/boy, you are, no questions.

This is why your references to 'transitioning' won't always make sense - often there is no physical transition. Clothes don't make a gender, therefore trans women can carry on having beards and wearing 'male' clothes, but they are still female inside (I actually agree that this is a perfectly logical conclusion and am always arguing on these boards that whatever sex or gender you feel you are, there should be no expectation to dress or present a certain way. You can be as masculine or feminine as you like and this has no bearing on your sex, or even gender).

The contradictory thing for me is that the same groups (as far as I can tell) strongly advocate early medical, drug, and surgical intervention in children.

I don't think the non-gender-dysphoric are necessarily on the margins. If you are 'woke' (I don't like the term but can't think of another right now) you generally accept that anyone is any gender they say (out of loads of options) and this may change and everyone must adapt, and this might not have any relation to any history of body dysmorphia etc. Some "genuine" (sorry not sure of appropriate term) trans people find this offensive and minimalises their own very real difficulties.

I am actually quite surprised if you haven't encountered this OP.

Out of interest, have we got words to distinguish between people who're presenting with issues with their sexed body, and people who're presenting with issues with their gendered body?

Obviously some people end up with both, but I think when we're talking about the group we think of as true trans or old school transsexual or whatever, we're talking about the people who acquired the first when rather young, and in the absence of treatment developed the second; whereas nowadays we're seeing more and more cases of the second presentation being acquired first, and the body issues following later or not at all.

Body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, isn't it? Is that a mutually-acceptable way of putting it?

OP, you've mentioned a few times that before recommending cross sex hormones or surgery, professionals are working with your child to explore any other issues that may be confusing your child's thinking. I was promised that this would happen also.

It did not.

I urge you and any other parent who may be struggling with this to be extra vigilant. My child knew the script and it was accepted without question. They were falling all over themselves to speed my child on the trans journey.

@Stellwagen

OP, you've mentioned a few times that before recommending cross sex hormones or surgery, professionals are working with your child to explore any other issues that may be confusing your child's thinking. I was promised that this would happen also.

It did not.

I urge you and any other parent who may be struggling with this to be extra vigilant. My child knew the script and it was accepted without question. They were falling all over themselves to speed my child on the trans journey.

Thank you for the advice, yes absolutely I want the thorough and broad exploration of all precipitating factors before even considering walking down the medical treatment route. DS knows this is non negotiable. I’m also not prepared to bunnyhop over and through the essential ‘cooling off period’ - for want of a better expression! - because this is a life altering pathway which is fine if that is absolutely the right thing to do.

Fortunately I’m naturally cynical and questioning, when my son was an inpatient the psychiatrist said I was formidable and kept some of the team on their toes because I always insist on knowing why they are doing something and what the goals are Being a teen DS finds this excruciating but I don’t think I would be doing my job if I didn’t question and be a gatekeeper.

blackwave your experiences sound so scary. I hope your child is in a better head space now.

OP I'm impressed & grateful that you've stuck it out on the thread. You hold some different beliefs about gender to me but it is refreshing that you actually want to discuss these. It is rare to be able to have this discussion. Usually there are just more of the baseless accusations of "transphobia" which, considering the essence of this discussion is child safeguarding, helps no-one.

I know you have already been given some links but late last night I remembered a recommendation from a colleague. Check out inspiredteentherapy.com. Sasha Ayad works with gender questioning teens. She seems extremely wise and sensitive to their struggles but it is really interesting where she holds a boundary: she calls her clients by their surname, I think so that there is never any equivalent of a sunk cost fallacy in terms of the teen's commitment to gender ideology and Sasha can avoid "taking sides" and potentially alienating the child or the parents.

@TyroTerf

Out of interest, have we got words to distinguish between people who're presenting with issues with their sexed body, and people who're presenting with issues with their gendered body?

Obviously some people end up with both, but I think when we're talking about the group we think of as true trans or old school transsexual or whatever, we're talking about the people who acquired the first when rather young, and in the absence of treatment developed the second; whereas nowadays we're seeing more and more cases of the second presentation being acquired first, and the body issues following later or not at all.

Body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, isn't it? Is that a mutually-acceptable way of putting it?

This is an interesting post and articulates my thinking.... Ds has had the former - the body dysmorphia - for a long time in hindsight I see the signs more clearly than I did at the time. Meltdowns about showers being one red flag.

He is very clear that it is not feeling that he is being ogled or treated in a particularly gendered way in part because he has presented in a stereotypically masculine way (I cringe writing that because I think everyone should wear what they want regardless of what section of the shop you purchase it in) so he’s not being sexualised per se.

@DeaconBoo

“ Clothes don't make a gender, therefore trans women can carry on having beards and wearing 'male' clothes, but they are still female inside (I actually agree that this is a perfectly logical conclusion and am always arguing on these boards that whatever sex or gender you feel you are, there should be no expectation to dress or present a certain way. You can be as masculine or feminine as you like and this has no bearing on your sex, or even gender).”

Ds and I are agreement on this point, clothes are about gender expression for many people and we don’t think this should be the case. I offer you a ‘debate’ we had the other day:

DS: when I’ve medically transitioned and have a beard I might grow my hair long.

Me: but if you want long hair you could grow it now? Men/boys can have long hair, it’s no reflection on their masculinity

DS: I know and I agree but I need to pass now

It went on but you get the gist. I have a lot of sympathy with both trans men and women who present in hyper masculine or feminine ways as I feel they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If you do you generally ‘pass’ and you can get on with your daily life which is what all of us want to be able to do. If you don’t and you shun the trappings of clothes then you open yourself up to ridicule, bullying and questioning about whether you are a ‘real’ man or woman.

The latest survey from Galop on hate crimes in the LGBT+ community show how much transgender people are at risk of bullying and hate speech: www.galop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Online-Crime-2020_0.pdf

Your point though about where this leaves trans women who don’t medically transition and remain to all intents and purposes looking male is a difficult one because I see that when it comes back to the safe space situation it makes it challenging to ascertain who should be allowed to use those spaces, potentially.

@BlackWaveComing

I just find it it interesting. I've been literally in the same position as the OP, including a child hospitalized for suicidal ideation, and at no stage did anything other than trying to uncover and treat root causes appear to me as reasonable.

Even sitting with said child on the floor of an isolation room after they'd been sectioned did not make me decide that intrusive and irreversible meds and surgery were an answer, that females can really be male, or that I could only think on a micro level. Nor did the emotionally abusive 'better a live son than dead daughter' have any effect on me. It certainly did not make me over-estimate neurological 'evidence'.

I credit my feminism for making me question, in the first instance, why my child's distress was located in an urge to abandon her femaleness.

@BlackWaveComing I’m sorry you’ve had the same experience.

I would say that we are both in agreement that trying to uncover the and treat the root cause however the root cause may reasonably be dysphoria. I wouldn’t say at any point we have blindly gone down the road towards transition at the expense of everything else.

I think gender dysphoria was a significant contributor to my sons mental health yet I also know that this interwoven with social anxiety, the ASD diagnosis amongst some other things. However it does feel like we have a ball of spaghetti and trying to unravel where it all started is no mean feat and will take time.

We’ve been at crisis point possibly 8-12 points this year alone which is why I say I don’t have the time to think on a macro level.

Some flowers for you this morning OP

@BrassicaRabbit

blackwave your experiences sound so scary. I hope your child is in a better head space now.

OP I'm impressed & grateful that you've stuck it out on the thread. You hold some different beliefs about gender to me but it is refreshing that you actually want to discuss these. It is rare to be able to have this discussion. Usually there are just more of the baseless accusations of "transphobia" which, considering the essence of this discussion is child safeguarding, helps no-one.

I know you have already been given some links but late last night I remembered a recommendation from a colleague. Check out inspiredteentherapy.com. Sasha Ayad works with gender questioning teens. She seems extremely wise and sensitive to their struggles but it is really interesting where she holds a boundary: she calls her clients by their surname, I think so that there is never any equivalent of a sunk cost fallacy in terms of the teen's commitment to gender ideology and Sasha can avoid "taking sides" and potentially alienating the child or the parents.

Thank you, I think it is important to discuss issues that actually we all care about in a calm and reasonable manner without mudslinging. Nothing can ever change otherwise, in my opinion

I will have a look at the link, thank you,

he’s not being sexualised per se.

The important thing to remember here (and I hope he learns to separate this out in his head if he doesn't already) is that "being sexualised" is as much about what's going on in our own heads as other people's.

It's hard going out and knowing you have no control over whether other people see the person first or the sex-object first. Healthy progress (with the end goal of being comfortable in your own skin instead of wanting to change it) on this issue is always, at root, going to involve coming to terms with that instead of running from it.

Also important to remember that the concept of "true trans" was always misapplied in general public understanding. Dysmorphia/dysphoria and trans are not synonymous and never were. The trans qualifier is synonymous with 'having acquired a cross-sex identification' and has recently been extended to cover 'having disidentified with one's own sex'.

the root cause may reasonably be dysphoria.
Given the ASD, anorexia and that your daughter is lesbian, this seems rather unlikely to have arisen itself with none of those as a first cause.
However, even if the root cause of the distress is gender dysphoria, social transitioning and medical transitioning have a very poor record of solving that.

@TyroTerf

So is the issue here then not with people experiencing true dysphoria and transitioning as a result but those perhaps more on the margins ie. non binary, gender fluid people and so on? Not trying to be inflammatory but trying to understand?

Not quite.

It's more a case of: transition might an appropriate last-ditch option for a mental health condition causing unmanageable distress in a minority of cases.

You only work out whether transition is needed by exhausting all the psychotherapy options. This takes years to do effectively. And even then I'd say there's always a way, even if this or that individual can't seem to find the path to it right now.

The way the whole concept is framed - transition as a benign, first-line response to distress? It's making it harder, less likely, that individuals will find healthier ways to manage their condition, because it offers a magic fix-it which, ultimately, can never work without the long hard slog of psychotherapeutic personal growth.

The thought of a magic fix-it that evil outside forces are denying us, that's a powerful disincentive against learning to live with dysphoria and bringing it down to a subclinical level.

I also think it is dangerous to consider transition as benign, the psychologist who we are working with has made it really clear that we have to work on the therapeutic side first and allow time for this. This is why I really like them and wanted to work with them.

I’ve made it clear to my son that medical transition is not a silver bullet that will fix everything, you will have to work on living with the dysphoria and acceptance of where you are right now.

I also think it is dangerous to consider transition as benign
That's reassuring but you still haven't answered the question (unless I've missed it) of whether you genuinely think your child can change sex. And whether you've made this plain to her.

Also, and I appreciate it's hard to get round this when your child has decided they are dressing in "masculine" clothes and they have persuaded everyone to refer to them as a boy, you have gone along with social transition which is ALSO not benign. It can be very hard to back out of and since it is VERY unlikely to lead people to think your daughter is an adult man, can lead to the desire to do more, and more, and more, which will of course never be enough since she cannot change sex.