I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

I guess it is worth repeating one of my own childhood experiences

I gave myself a male name, David, always wrote about myself as a boy in stories, was always a boy in my dreams, didn't like girlie things, I was much more into car engines than make up. I loathed my body. And some of this is still part of me to be truthful.

This was many years ago, before affirmation became a thing

One of the experiences that has stayed with me and shaped me was when I was helping my dad mend the car. An old ford escort. And my small girls hand managed to squeeze in and get the filter off, whilst my dads man hand was just too big. And he made me feel so proud, how it showed it didn't matter that I was a girl. Like he was , to be fair, always telling me. That it could even be a good thing.

And now. I am so glad I am not growing up today, because I was taught to accept myself, live with my whole self, be truely and wholeheartedly me, every bit of me. Physical and mental. Not hate bits of myself. And that means I have avoided surgery, hormones, dangerous medicalisation.

There is nothing wrong with me. So other people don't always understand me, want to treat me different because of my sex? so what. That's their problem. Shows them up for the people they are. Narrow minded. Biased. Not people I can give any respect to.

It went on but you get the gist. I have a lot of sympathy with both trans men and women who present in hyper masculine or feminine ways as I feel they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If you do you generally ‘pass’ and you can get on with your daily life which is what all of us want to be able to do. If you don’t and you shun the trappings of clothes then you open yourself up to ridicule, bullying and questioning about whether you are a ‘real’ man or woman.

It's crap, isn't it? And again, all dictated by societal views on gender stereotypes. And the real-world consequences of being penalised for not adhering to them in the ""appropriate"" way.

It would help a tiny bit, I think, if the rules about what it means to 'live as a woman/man' for a GRC had any sort of clarification!

Oh that's irritating - was just proofreading a long post and the page crashed!

The gist was - I'm still nodding along and I get where your child's coming from entirely; I think a bit of reframing might help you both though.

Essentially, back away from the idea of genetic or biological precursors called "trans" for a bit. Don't fret about the truth-value of the idea, just set it aside for now, cos it's leading everyone up the garden path and not helping your child to manage dysphoric thinking.

Something caused body issues - could be sensory issues due to asd, could be some grim experiences as in my case which effectively caused sensory issues, could be a variety of things. Body issues may develop into dysmorphia (disconnection from sex), which opens the path to develop dysphoria (disconnection from gender), which may lead to a "trans identity" coping mechanism.

I know this isn't how you currently interpret his issues, but separating it out this way means that, while dysphoric thinking is just part of who I am, I've learnt to manage and reduce the emotional distress that interactions with the gendered world inevitably results in on occasion. No physical transition necessary.

The path there will look different for your child though, because the world has changed. A "female boy" who can comfortably adhere to the limited and necessary sex-segregation we have might be an outcome that works for everyone - but only if the distress-neutralising techniques are in place and working well.

you have gone along with social transition which is ALSO not benign.

Absolutely!

It would help a tiny bit, I think, if the rules about what it means to 'live as a woman/man' for a GRC had any sort of clarification!

It would be good to see how this could be written without being simply a list of sexist stereotypes which reinforce discrimination against women. Clothes (jeans and t-shirt?), hairstyle (short?), shoes (boots?), makeup (none?), demeanour (strong logical leader?), name (Alex? Sam? Jo?), professional job (civil engineer?)...

Doesn't the very phrase social transition imply that the whole thing is a social problem and social construct?

Why can't you teach your child that they don't have to fit social expectations, that many (most?) people don't, that it's not a guaranteed route to happiness.

Can you identify what in your own behaviour would be different if your child had been born the other sex?

A different name? Different clothes....surely your child is old enough to choose their own clothes and haircut? How do they expect you to treat them differently,,,I am talking actions which are more important than words ?

How do they expect you to treat them differently

Always been a sticky point for me.

Asking me to treat someone "like a man" means asking me to treat that person like a potential predator to my prey.

It asks me to conceptualise myself as prey.

Not a reasonable request.

@midgebabe

Doesn't the very phrase social transition imply that the whole thing is a social problem and social construct?

Why can't you teach your child that they don't have to fit social expectations, that many (most?) people don't, that it's not a guaranteed route to happiness.

Can you identify what in your own behaviour would be different if your child had been born the other sex?

A different name? Different clothes....surely your child is old enough to choose their own clothes and haircut? How do they expect you to treat them differently,,,I am talking actions which are more important than words ?

This, as a feminist, is what I have been doing through the lives of all my children. Having a child with ASD a blows all social norms out of window anyway! Due to the special interests he’s had along the way life has been one long lesson of nurturing and encouraging him to feel happy in not fitting in with social expectations and enjoying those interests. I always remember him asking me to make him an ambulance cake at the age of three and the look on the mums faces when I bought it out after the party tea

For about 6-8 years I have been asking myself what how I would behave differently if he had been boy biologically male. Do I have any unconscious bias, because ultimately we all do. I guess yes a different name, clothes and hair would be the same as I have never dictated what they wear. He’s been choosing his own clothes and haircut for many, many years.

In terms of interests, hobbies and so on again I’m not one of these who thinks girls should do ballet and boys football. Just finding something that you engage with is important.

He doesn’t expect me to treat him differently in fact he wants me to treat him the same albeit by using different pronouns, using the new name and respecting that he is now male.

@TyroTerf

How do they expect you to treat them differently

Always been a sticky point for me.

Asking me to treat someone "like a man" means asking me to treat that person like a potential predator to my prey.

It asks me to conceptualise myself as prey.

Not a reasonable request.

Well that’s it and my son has made it clear he doesn’t want to be treated differently to before, I am not even sure how I would do that He is still the child that he was before, this has not changed his personality or anything else for that matter.

It all comes back to the fact that your child feels horror at their female body. It's the feeling that's disordered, not the body.

I get that one way is to tackle the body - a pretty arduous and awful route by all accounts. But I do not believe this ever truly leads to a peaceful resolution except in a tiny minority of cases. For most it's a false hope - a quick fix diet if you like.

For me, stating clearly what is going on is the starting point to understanding and the sufferer being able to reach an accommodation with themselves. Affirmation will never be a good starting point because it accepts and promotes the falsehood that the issue genuinely lies in the body.

@Aesopfable

you have gone along with social transition which is ALSO not benign.

Absolutely!

It would help a tiny bit, I think, if the rules about what it means to 'live as a woman/man' for a GRC had any sort of clarification!

It would be good to see how this could be written without being simply a list of sexist stereotypes which reinforce discrimination against women. Clothes (jeans and t-shirt?), hairstyle (short?), shoes (boots?), makeup (none?), demeanour (strong logical leader?), name (Alex? Sam? Jo?), professional job (civil engineer?)...

I think you couldn’t go down that road otherwise you would have to for other minority groups that have protected characteristics. You can only be a Muslim if you wear a headscarf for example, you can only be black if you like ‘x’ music... extreme examples but the stereotypes would be reinforced and discriminatory which is clearly not ok.

On this point I don’t have an issue with self identification per se as the best way of identifying who is trans because at the moment there is no alternative.

He doesn’t expect me to treat him differently in fact he wants me to treat him the same albeit by using different pronouns, using the new name and respecting that he is now male.

So you’ve finally, in your own way, answered the question that’s been asked several times on this thread - do you believe he has changed sex? - by this post.

And I’m sorry, your child isn’t now male and never will be. I feel really sad that you haven’t found the strength to tell your child this.

Just in case it isn't clear: I can't think of your child as "like a man" because I think of him as human first and foremost, and a human who has issues I can very much relate to, at that. I see the commonality first, not the difference in current identity-label.

He's not the Other that dominates and damages, to me. And yes, the fact that my brain associates those things with "man" is my issue, but it wasn't a conscious choice; I was made this way, not by god or nature but by men's actions. I can't just switch it off.

The bugger is how the hell you get that meaning across without triggering defensiveness. Especially to a teenager!

On the note of calling the move to being recognised as your chosen gender a social transition maybe this isn’t the correct term. The psychologist said they would prefer the term a ‘psychological transition’ because actually this describes it better.

I guess it’s a social transition because your social networks are aware that you have changed gender and it’s that adjustment that has to happen.

On the online support networks I’m a member of parents often post about being utterly perplexed by why their trans child is not changing their hairstyles or clothes to ‘fit’ their new identity. This inevitably starts a debate about the need to separate gender expression from sex. I actually think that trans kids get this better than anyone, some don’t feel so much the need to wear a dress and high heels just because they have identified as male. I actually admire the strength it takes to do this because it does open them up to ridicule and questioning.

Sorry but how is an ambulance cake pushing social norms?

tyro
Asking me to treat someone "like a man" means asking me to treat that person like a potential predator to my prey.

It asks me to conceptualise myself as prey.

Not a reasonable request.

It's not. And you are right about what is being asked. And of course following logically to what it means when we are asked to think of someone born male as female, it gets even more worrying.

It's so topsy turvy because the people who say they are totally able to conceive of others as the opposite sex because of their hair /voice /clothes /hobbies are the ones reading the regressive stereotypes over the sexed body. Yet they are lauded as progressive by TRAs and MPs and Universities etc etc. (Not speaking of you, OP, but of mainstream trans activism).

I get from your posts that you don't believe this has been socialised into your child by your parenting. And I think that sounds very reasonable. You probably gave your child a less gendered upbringing than the average.

That still doesn't mean though that the cause is in the body. The cause is in the mind. We make up stories for ourselves about the cause being in the body because it seems to make sense. The power of the narrative is overwhelming for humans. We are narrative creatures and we make up narratives for things we don't understand fully:

Thunder and lightning is caused by the Gods fighting.

Our suffering on earth will be redeemed in Heaven, by God's grace.
Autism is caused by refrigerator mothers or vaccines.

A person's deep distress at their own body is caused by the fact that on some spiritual or emotional level they should have had a different body.

The reality in each case is pretty hard to deal with because it means the cause is out of our control and out of the control of the Gods. We live in a complex uncontrollable world and we still keep trying to fit stories onto random and chaotic events so that we can make sense of them.

But you haven't changed gender. Everything actually about you stays exactly the same. Apart from a few elements of your social interface , and that's just social norms again

@june2007

You say your child has been buullkied. Well I exxpect their choices will be make it worse. I had a friend 9a man) he decided he was a girl. He chose a girls name and for a month or two wore girls clothes. then decided he wasn,t a girl. (No kidding) An chose a name suitable for both genders to be non binary. I think he is back to his original name. Peple do change their minds. Kids are impresionable. No we can not change sex. How many people have mutilated their boddies in an attempt to do so.

I’m not entirely sure how you can compare the experiences of someone who was testing their identity for a month or two with someone has been doing this for years!

Absolutely of course children change their minds hence the not rushing, I will be keeping all doors open and not closing any until we all feel more certain and even then explaining that some doors will remain shut (permanently bricked up) but others can be reopened.

If your child is female by calling them he you are giving messages

They can change sex
Gender is relevant and important and should be adhered to
There is something wrong with their body

Those are all terrible messages to give someone

It's interesting how the narrative has shifted. When I first read about this even quite extreme trans voices would say "yes obviously a transwoman is male, but they are a woman because of their gender identity". Now OP, who is generally coming across as a gender-believer but not extreme, is talking about their female child as "male". When did they go from claiming man to claiming male too? What language does that leave for biology lessons?

Their was history of it in his family I did not go their and ask as the info wasn,t offered other then that it was something the family had experience of. So the issue was actually their before he "cameout" as a women and wore womens clothes outside the house.

@mollscroll

I get from your posts that you don't believe this has been socialised into your child by your parenting. And I think that sounds very reasonable. You probably gave your child a less gendered upbringing than the average.

That still doesn't mean though that the cause is in the body. The cause is in the mind. We make up stories for ourselves about the cause being in the body because it seems to make sense. The power of the narrative is overwhelming for humans. We are narrative creatures and we make up narratives for things we don't understand fully:

Thunder and lightning is caused by the Gods fighting.

Our suffering on earth will be redeemed in Heaven, by God's grace.
Autism is caused by refrigerator mothers or vaccines.

A person's deep distress at their own body is caused by the fact that on some spiritual or emotional level they should have had a different body.

The reality in each case is pretty hard to deal with because it means the cause is out of our control and out of the control of the Gods. We live in a complex uncontrollable world and we still keep trying to fit stories onto random and chaotic events so that we can make sense of them.

I recognise that there are influences on my child that extend far further than the home, particularly as they get older the family influences become much less. There is little I can do about that and with the best will in the world we can’t exist in a bubble. I could absolutely move house (continents!), homeschool, ban x y and z but doing those things would inevitably create a whole new set of problems which could negatively impact on his mental health.

What I can do is accept all of the above - we are where we are, I can’t change the past or shape his whole future - and give him the tools and openings to explore the things that are causing him distress, including the dysphoria. Beyond that he is getting to an age whereby the decision making about medical treatment and so on will slowly be handed over to him (I learnt this when he was an inpatient - 16 and 17 year olds can make decisions about their care without parental input) so I need to ensure by that point enough robust questioning and therapy has occurred so he can make the right decisions for himself. Whether you agree with that or not, that is how the system works.

Feeding into that, I love him wholeheartedly and will do all I can to support him and help him to grow up into a healthy and happy adult. If that means he remains trans and transitions then so be it.

And yes weaving narratives around ourselves makes the world less frightening.

@midgebabe

Sorry but how is an ambulance cake pushing social norms?

It isn’t pushing social norms but an unusual request for a three year old! The parties we tended to attend were all Disney princess type themes (I hate Disney princesses but that is a whole other thread!) so this cake stood out as unexpected and unusual ie. not fitting into the social norms of that group at that times.

@thirdfiddle

It's interesting how the narrative has shifted. When I first read about this even quite extreme trans voices would say "yes obviously a transwoman is male, but they are a woman because of their gender identity". Now OP, who is generally coming across as a gender-believer but not extreme, is talking about their female child as "male". When did they go from claiming man to claiming male too? What language does that leave for biology lessons?

I have never given any headspace to the difference in meaning of the terms male/man and thus use them fairly interchangeably. I’m not an expert in this area and don’t think I have claimed to be whilst accepting that language is clumsy and something said innocently can not be viewed as such in the eyes of others,.

Cambridge dictionary says this: male - a boy, man, or male animal. Thus confirming they are interchangeable.

all the children's parties were Disney ones? Somewhat unusual. Or did your child have an unusually limited social circle? Did you implicitly push the idea that males and females are fundamentally different by excluding boys from the social group?