I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@midgebabe

all the children's parties were Disney ones? Somewhat unusual. Or did your child have an unusually limited social circle? Did you implicitly push the idea that males and females are fundamentally different by excluding boys from the social group?

Pretty much at that point.. very noticeable that parties were pink and purple themed. Not sure this is particularly unusual for small girls, not saying it’s right but fairly standard.

No, we’ve always had mixed sex parties especially when small. When they got older and could choose their own friends there may have been a bias one way or the other but never any deliberate exclusion. All three children have friends of both sexes of which I am glad, I want them to see people and shared interests not choosing friends purely in the basis of gender.

Interestingly we live in an area with a high number of single sex schools, my middle child started secondary this year and stated he wanted to go to a mixed sex school as he has both male and female friends.

@HecatesCats

Some flowers for you this morning OP

Thank you

So all children in your social circle were into Disney? Sorry I don't buy a diverse group of small children and your child standing out with an ambulance cake.

@midgebabe

So all children in your social circle were into Disney? Sorry I don't buy a diverse group of small children and your child standing out with an ambulance cake.

Kids may not have been but parents certainly were, my circle of friends not so much and are similar Disney princess haters. My child was at nursery at the time so maybe it was the thing there, who knows.

I’m not sure the point you are trying to make apart from verging on trying to discredit what I am saying because you don’t believe me... or?

I’m on this DIY group on Facebook and on there all nurseries seem to fall in the pink for girls blue for boys categories plus princesses v dinosaurs. Someone had a baby boy rather than the girl they were expecting cue much panic over having to redecorate the room before they bought the baby home I’m pretty sure that a) the newborn wouldn’t care and b) pink doesn’t have to be just for girls! I don’t think it is that unusual for a three year olds birthday cake to also fall down the same gendered rabbit hole. Having a medically themed birthday IS a little more unusual I would say, although great fun to do!

@midgebabe

So all children in your social circle were into Disney? Sorry I don't buy a diverse group of small children and your child standing out with an ambulance cake.

My favourite cakes I have made for him over the years were the periodic table cake for his tenth birthday and the maths one for the previous year!

So what you cakes weren,t girly. Who cares? What does that prove. Maths and periodic table cakes show that yes perhaps she is a bit geeky and fits in with the ASD thing. But no relevance to being trans.

I think you couldn’t go down that road otherwise you would have to for other minority groups that have protected characteristics. You can only be a Muslim if you wear a headscarf for example, you can only be black if you like ‘x’ music... extreme examples but the stereotypes would be reinforced and discriminatory which is clearly not ok.

On this point I don’t have an issue with self identification per se as the best way of identifying who is trans because at the moment there is no alternative.

But the GRC doesn't say "live as a trans person". It says "lived as the acquired gender (male or female)". This isn't something that only trans people do, it's saying it's something everyone (who has a gender) does, and you become one of them by acquiring that gender.

It is a criterion to legally change your sex marker and obtain a legal document yet it is essentially saying there is no way of actually achieving or not achieving this.
What would be the equivalents for Muslim or Black people? And do you think anyone should equally be able to self-identify into these groups? If not, I don't understand why you've given this as an equivalent - we're always told "gender is different".

My favourite cakes I have made for him over the years were the periodic table cake for his tenth birthday and the maths one for the previous year!
Love this

yes, I feel doubt, I don't take people at their self professed words, especially when it's something this serious,

I would like to know how you actively support your child to be themselves without them having to retreat to the transgender .

you can't be transgender unless you think there is a gender to trans from.

By supporting idea of transgender , agreeing that having a male name matters, you are supporting gender . you say you are feminist. Not many feminists support gender, most feminist see the concept of gender as a means to enforce sexist cages on women

Beyond the obvious body problems that many a teenage girl has, all other "gender issues" could be simply seen as a reaction against the sex based expectations.

The cake thing interests me, because I can see how it would have perhaps been interpreted by the developing child-mind as "the out-group does Disney and princesses; the in-group eyerolls about it."

I can think of some ways that could have been mitigated somewhat, but that doesn't help you now. And in a way it's an indicator that your child is just like any other, because they all subconsciously divine imperfect rules from what they experience. That's just being human. If it hadn't been cake it would have been something else.

Don't kick yourself about it though. Just use it as insight going forwards.

@june2007

So what you cakes weren,t girly. Who cares? What does that prove. Maths and periodic table cakes show that yes perhaps she is a bit geeky and fits in with the ASD thing. But no relevance to being trans.

If you read up the thread someone asked about teaching your child it’s ok to be different. This was in response to that. The point I was making was that we have done this his whole life because he has ASD and some quite niche special interests over the years. I was quoting an example of the birthday cakes to exemplify that we have accepted and support his interests and encouraged him to bring these out and not fear social rejection as a result. I thus have no issue in supporting him in being gender non conforming and actually that was/is exactly what I have done and am doing. So it’s not that we have never forced him to comply with social norms or gender norms if that was what people felt we were doing.

Is that a bit clearer?

Now look up the definition of male. There's a reason "woman:adult human female" was deemed the height of transphobia. Trans activists had tried to redefine "woman" but hadn't yet made any attempt on "female".

I personally don't think we should redefine either as it has massive adverse impact on women's rights if "woman" is no longer defined in terms of biology. If some females don't want to describe themselves as girls/women then transman/transboy is an accurate alternative that doesn't undefine the whole category.

@TyroTerf

The cake thing interests me, because I can see how it would have perhaps been interpreted by the developing child-mind as "the out-group does Disney and princesses; the in-group eyerolls about it."

I can think of some ways that could have been mitigated somewhat, but that doesn't help you now. And in a way it's an indicator that your child is just like any other, because they all subconsciously divine imperfect rules from what they experience. That's just being human. If it hadn't been cake it would have been something else.

Don't kick yourself about it though. Just use it as insight going forwards.

Sure and I suppose this demonstrates how we divide on gender lines from a very young age. My dislike of Disney princesses is the whole being saved by a man and marrying them straight away thing as well as the more commercial point of not being able to buy much that is princess-y that is not a Disney princess.

He’s always been proud of the cakes and actually his friends enjoy every year seeing what the next one will be, the Rubik’s cube one was a particular hit

It's not about teaching your child it's ok to be different. I mean, so far there is nothing different about your child is there? Beyond the era they are going up in which affects how people interpret what they see in the child

It's about teaching your child that there is nothing unusual in what they are and who they want to be. That they are just fine as they are. That just because other people want to limit them does not mean they have to accept those limits.

I am uncomfortable with the phrase 'trans child'. For a child it seems more appropriate to say your child has gender dysphoria. A condition which evidence shows most children grow out of and no longer experience. They are experiencing dysphoria - to leap to I have a trans child seems premature and given the road it leads down potentially very harmful.

I notice as well that this breaks the mould in terms of how eg. parents of children 'with' sen, in my opinion correctly, ask that their children come first not the condition so we say a child with aspergers or a child with down syndrome not an aspie child or a down's syndrome child. Yet with dysphoria it becomes the whole identity rather than a condition being experienced by the child.

Are you genuinely comfortable with referring to your daughter as he and are you ok with affirming her dysphoria knowing that the likely outcome of that affirmation will be infertility and quite possibly never being able to achieve orgasm and to have extremely slim chances of forging healthy happy romantic relationships?

And, apologies if this has been covered I haven't read the whole thread, is your daughter old enough to know what her sexuality is? Has she ever 'fancied' someone or had a girl/boyfriend? Does she know who she is attracted to yet?

Honey badger she is attracted to females.

@midgebabe

yes, I feel doubt, I don't take people at their self professed words, especially when it's something this serious,

I would like to know how you actively support your child to be themselves without them having to retreat to the transgender .

you can't be transgender unless you think there is a gender to trans from.

By supporting idea of transgender , agreeing that having a male name matters, you are supporting gender . you say you are feminist. Not many feminists support gender, most feminist see the concept of gender as a means to enforce sexist cages on women

Beyond the obvious body problems that many a teenage girl has, all other "gender issues" could be simply seen as a reaction against the sex based expectations.

Doubt in what sense, that I’m not real? I’m trying to provoke?

I can’t really address the specific issue unless I know what it is?

I’m definitely real and everything I have said is true, Mumsnet would have got rid of the thread is I was trolling and possibly if I wasn’t a long standing member. They emailed me yesterday to say how interesting the thread was and that they were watching but it was good it had not descended into chaos!

My experience and perspective may not align with yours but it’s definitely true and legitimate. I’m not a fan of hyperbole as I feel its unnecessary particularly in such an emotive topic as this. I hope that this thread shows I am measured and calm and not prone to the above.

The reason I haven’t repeatedly answer the same questions is because if I feel it has been addressed further up the thread I don’t feel the need to re-answer. The answer won’t change just because someone different asks the question. I think I have explained what we are doing to support and help my son, possibly more cautiously than others in the same boat. How we are trying to walk a tightrope in very challenging circumstances.

I’m not saying we are perfect and mistakes may be made as in any parenting journey but we are doing our best.

Yes I do support my child in his assertion that he is a boy but this is after years and years of challenge, investigation and support which is also ongoing. It’s not overnight and a knee jerk reaction to trying to prevent my child harming themselves.

I started this thread not to be mud sling or to be controversial but to open up dialogue and find out more about the views of other people which I find thought provoking and interesting. It’s easy for all of us to live in an echo chamber and I don’t want to do that, I want to sometimes have difficult conversations and to be made to feel uncomfortable because that’s how we grow... in my view.

Thank you June.

So she's a young lesbian with asd. I'm afraid I can only too easily see how the idea of a magic bullet would be so appealing to her. ie. all of my discomfort, all of my differences that I need to deal with and come to terms with, all of my sense of wrongness can be stuck under the heading 'wrong body' with the promise of a fix.

Sadly the fix is a myth in that you can't actually become the opposite sex and a myth in the sense that the real problems will still remain and need to be dealt with.

It's terribly sad.

Yeah and my comments aren't meant to be mud slinging or confrontational btw but to express my views as you sought other people's views.

My view is that 'born in the wrong body' is a very seductive panacea for any and all ills in terms of comfort with one's own self be that having a less common sexuality, not being NT, struggling to feel comfortable in your skin etc. The sad reality being that as seductive as it sounds the fixes it offers are irreversibly harmful and don't work to solve the actual problems.

This seems intuitively logical to me and it is also backed up in the heartbreaking accounts of detransitioners.

Has your daugher actually read any storries about detransitioners? Or any of the whist blowers from Mrmaids and the Tavistock clinic?

@TheHoneyBadger

I am uncomfortable with the phrase 'trans child'. For a child it seems more appropriate to say your child has gender dysphoria. A condition which evidence shows most children grow out of and no longer experience. They are experiencing dysphoria - to leap to I have a trans child seems premature and given the road it leads down potentially very harmful.

I notice as well that this breaks the mould in terms of how eg. parents of children 'with' sen, in my opinion correctly, ask that their children come first not the condition so we say a child with aspergers or a child with down syndrome not an aspie child or a down's syndrome child. Yet with dysphoria it becomes the whole identity rather than a condition being experienced by the child.

Are you genuinely comfortable with referring to your daughter as he and are you ok with affirming her dysphoria knowing that the likely outcome of that affirmation will be infertility and quite possibly never being able to achieve orgasm and to have extremely slim chances of forging healthy happy romantic relationships?

Picking up on the SEN language, again I am member of some online support groups as my eldest has ASD and the middle has ADD and Dyspraxia. I also grew up within a deaf family. I have noticed the following phrase used a lot on one particular forum: ‘my child is ASD’ which to me feels uncomfortable as you point out the condition then comes before the child. One thing I have liked about the approach to mental health is this holistic person centred approach which doesn’t just focus on the conditions they have been diagnosed with but on all aspects of their lives.

I do very much feel that gender dysphoria is one aspect of my child as is him saying he is male. This has informed our approach to accessing support and care so in the first instance (after many battles) we got CAMHS involved and only recently have we been looking at gender specialist care - and by this I mean psychological and not physical care.

The latter paragraph has been addressed earlier on in the discussion, to reiterate we have been very open and honest about the impact of particularly surgical reconstruction on sex and intimacy because although it doesn’t matter when you are 14 chances are it will matter when you are 24. I suggested he talk about this with the gender specialist in the last appointment and they talk about yes testosterone increases libido but phalloplasty comes with significant risks. Personally I would value sexual intimacy over ‘looks’ and I have stressed that on a number occasions. We have also discussed infertility and how in your teens you don’t think about the desire to have children but that is likely to change when find someone you want to build a life with.

Naturally as a parent you want your child to grow up and have a fulfilling life romantically, vocationally and otherwise. I firmly believe that any decisions made should facilitate this.

Yes but your child in that case is neither a male nor following your logic a boy.

Your child is conforming, op, but conforming to what they perceive (and gave probably researched) is the answer to the questions "why do I feel different? Why don't I fit in? Why don't I like the same stuff as the girly girls?"

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't be happier living as a male. But I suspect that for your child and many others, it's a search for belonging at its heart.

Sorry my earlier post should have referenced the quote below

Cambridge dictionary says this: male - a boy, man, or male animal. Thus confirming they are interchangeable.

Yes but your child in that case is neither a male nor following your logic a boy.