I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@june2007

Has your daugher actually read any storries about detransitioners? Or any of the whist blowers from Mrmaids and the Tavistock clinic?

Yes he has he was showing me a detransitioners section on Reddit two nights ago, we had quite a long talk about this. We did discuss (someone else pointed out the potential for flawed data early on) that it is is hard to establish how many people have detransitioned but also why as many may not engage with gender clinics in the detransition process so how can you track this. The rates of detransition do decrease significantly the further into the transitioning process you go but I acknowledge that in ten years time that these rates could increase as more people transition earlier IYKWIM?

Together we’ve watched documentaries and news segments from both perspectives (for example there was a CH 4 documentary by an Irish lady who had concerns over the number of children identifying as trans followed by the one by Munroe Bergoff who both attended the same rally).

The way I see it, the stories of detransitioners won't necessarily get through to someone if they genuinely believe there is such a thing as "true trans". If you think "well those people were never really trans in the first place...but I am". In fact I've seen stories of detransitioners just reinforce people's sense of trans identity as they think "they're nothing like me".

Unfortunately the "true trans"/"born in the wrong body" theory has got such a stronghold now, especially among young people, that it feels almost impossible to argue with. There was a time when stating "this person is a male in a female's body" would sound absurd...now you're regarded as absurd for questioning that view.

OP do you think it's strange that gender and sex are considered a fluid "spectrum" by the current trans ideology and yet cis/trans is considered a binary? That you're either one or the other? This makes no sense to me.

Picking up on the SEN language, again I am member of some online support groups as my eldest has ASD and the middle has ADD and Dyspraxia. I also grew up within a deaf family. I have noticed the following phrase used a lot on one particular forum: ‘my child is ASD’ which to me feels uncomfortable as you point out the condition then comes before the child. One thing I have liked about the approach to mental health is this holistic person centred approach which doesn’t just focus on the conditions they have been diagnosed with but on all aspects of their lives.

Op, this is a fundamental misunderstanding. Fundamental.

The fact is, they ARE autistic.
Autism isn't just one part of a person. Autism can't be separated from the person. Autism affects the way an autistic person perceives the world, experiences it, interacts with it, communicates with it.

This is precisely why autistic people are particularly susceptible to all the identity stuff. A combination of feeling like you don't fit in, a tendency to a rich online life, lots of research, a search for clear explanations and answers, a tendency to gender nonconformity, and then a tendency to hold rigidly to formed opinions. It is vital to view the identity issues through the context of autism, not as a coincidental travel-along.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're doing badly in how you're navigating this minefield of a situation. There's always room for improvement but there really isn't a manual.

In your shoes I'd be looking to depoliticise pronouns. Not challenging his, but shrugging and making light of their importance in other contexts. Leaves the door open to shift his if that feels right, while at the same time demonstrating that they're not the most important thing. Because - ideal outcome - whatever pronoun he prefers, he needs chance to learn that it's not such a big deal if people get it wrong.

If he fixates on it, he's going to run up against things that trigger the associated distress all the damned time and won't have any means of coping with it. Not a scenario you want to end up in.

By the same token, "female boy" might work a treat for now, psychologically speaking. But if he ever runs into people who insist on classifying him as a "cisfemale boy" oppressing "transfemale boys" he's going to have a major problem on his hands.

Obviously though, as you yourself acknowledge, a child cannot grasp the impact of not being able to have children, not being able to orgasm, probably having a very very small pool of people who are willing to date them.

I wonder how many people realise that gender questioning is so normal, especially for same sex attracted people and maybe for autistic people, who knows. I am both and it's certainly something I went through. I loved being mistaken for a boy when I was pre-school age and it happened a lot as I had short hair and only wanted to wear 'boy' clothes. I recoiled against anything 'girly' very strongly.

I didn't grow up to be trans though. And so I wonder fundamentally what the difference is between me and your child? Because my fear is that there isn't a difference other than I never had the exposure to this ideology nor the opportunity to latch onto it as an option.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4081055-sweden-sharp-decline-in-referrals-to-gd-clinics

This thread contains some interesting links you might find interesting.

It makes me quite sad now to realise how vehemently I rejected womanhood as I saw it as so inferior to what society told me was better and stronger. But it wasn't my body I was rejecting, but a manufactured set of stereotypes and attitudes. I can see how easy it would be to internalise this.

If "detransitioners" is being interpreted as 'Other, fundamentally different to Self' then a means to connect the two is needed.

At the moment it's couched as "trans vs detransitioner". This misses half the picture.

Put the never-transitioners back into the story. Put me and midge and everyone else back in there. The analysis of the phenomenon must include us, or it is logically inherently flawed.

I think the common features are female-bodied, dysphoric, found a coping mechanism that works for now. We are not really different. We just use different "stories" as coping mechanisms.

Some of us are transitioners, some of us are detransitioners, some of us are never-transitioners.

You've said you couldn't control the socialisation from outside. Of course you couldn't. My point was that socialisation may not be the only reason your child struggles with gender.

My point was that it could be endogenous. But endogenous in the brain. A faulty understanding in the brain has arisen about their sexed body and an inability to accept that body as rightfully theirs.

That's all it means. It doesn't have to mean anything about the truth of their actual body. As a pp said above, referring to someone with gender dysphoria as a trans child is where the problem starts. They have gender dysphoria. That's it. That's the beginning and end of the problem. Not they have gender dysphoria because they are truthfully trans (whatever that means) and need to find another body to live in.

Love the periodic table cake by the way. But the narrative telling here is so strong. "They had an ambulance cake so this was always inherent". This is exactly what the woman I know with the transitioning daughter says - well I always knew because people mistook her for a boy from an early age. Fitting bits of evidence into a narrative to make sense of it all when actually it's a random accident causing deep discomfort that cannot be resolved by following the narrative path set for you by the trans ideology.

By the way, my dd had a football cake and there is a picture of my sister and I aged 4 and 3, in the early seventies - it's in my hallway right now. We had a knights and castles cake. It was normal. Still is normal. We have gone backwards a long way.

Did you not consider counselling for your daughter to explore gender conformity issues?

Never transitioner here but I could easily have been told I fitted under the trans umbrella.

I find the term cis offensive for many reasons but one is that it is assumed you are either trans or happy with the system of gender assigned to your sex at birth. It belies the realities of how much battling and negotiating we do with the identity expected of us by virtue of our body and how many decades it takes women to feel comfortable with their sex and how hard it is to live as a female in society.

And look another binary. Cis v trans. I'm not trans but I certainly don't fit their cis theory.

@mollscroll

You've said you couldn't control the socialisation from outside. Of course you couldn't. My point was that socialisation may not be the only reason your child struggles with gender.

My point was that it could be endogenous. But endogenous in the brain. A faulty understanding in the brain has arisen about their sexed body and an inability to accept that body as rightfully theirs.

That's all it means. It doesn't have to mean anything about the truth of their actual body. As a pp said above, referring to someone with gender dysphoria as a trans child is where the problem starts. They have gender dysphoria. That's it. That's the beginning and end of the problem. Not they have gender dysphoria because they are truthfully trans (whatever that means) and need to find another body to live in.

Love the periodic table cake by the way. But the narrative telling here is so strong. "They had an ambulance cake so this was always inherent". This is exactly what the woman I know with the transitioning daughter says - well I always knew because people mistook her for a boy from an early age. Fitting bits of evidence into a narrative to make sense of it all when actually it's a random accident causing deep discomfort that cannot be resolved by following the narrative path set for you by the trans ideology.

By the way, my dd had a football cake and there is a picture of my sister and I aged 4 and 3, in the early seventies - it's in my hallway right now. We had a knights and castles cake. It was normal. Still is normal. We have gone backwards a long way.

You’ve misunderstood my point about the cake it wasn’t related to gender but to the ASD diagnosis in that we have been working on being proud of who you are and your interests regardless of what other children like or dislike.

So you don’t like fairy stories but want to read books about maths that’s cool, the difference here is not that girls prefer books about fairies but that ASD means that his interests tend not to be as mainstream as children in general. Same note he’s never been interested in dinosaurs or football kit because it’s a gender thing but because it’s just not his thing.

@AldiAisleofCrap

Did you not consider counselling for your daughter to explore gender conformity issues?

This has been addressed further up the thread, please can you read it through first.

Ah not because it’s a gender thing that should read @mollscroll

@TheHoneyBadger

Never transitioner here but I could easily have been told I fitted under the trans umbrella.

I find the term cis offensive for many reasons but one is that it is assumed you are either trans or happy with the system of gender assigned to your sex at birth. It belies the realities of how much battling and negotiating we do with the identity expected of us by virtue of our body and how many decades it takes women to feel comfortable with their sex and how hard it is to live as a female in society.

And look another binary. Cis v trans. I'm not trans but I certainly don't fit their cis theory.

I’ve addressed the c word earlier on too @TheHoneyBadger and I’m also not a fan.

I'm positioning myself as a never-transitioner because the more militant proponents of the narrative are absolutely adamant that my experiences don't count and are invalid.

At OP's child's age, I was routinely presenting as a boy online.

It was pre broadband and not having camera access was normal then, so I usually passed.

I just never tried it offline, because the material fact of my body could not be disguised, from myself or from anyone else.

Before that, I used to present truthfully as female online. The responses of adult males taught me just how unsafe that was. Either they believed it and came onto me, or accused me of being one of them in disguise. It was grim. And it further entrenched my issues.

@TyroTerf

If "detransitioners" is being interpreted as 'Other, fundamentally different to Self' then a means to connect the two is needed.

At the moment it's couched as "trans vs detransitioner". This misses half the picture.

Put the never-transitioners back into the story. Put me and midge and everyone else back in there. The analysis of the phenomenon must include us, or it is logically inherently flawed.

I think the common features are female-bodied, dysphoric, found a coping mechanism that works for now. We are not really different. We just use different "stories" as coping mechanisms.

Some of us are transitioners, some of us are detransitioners, some of us are never-transitioners.

The never transitioning group interests me a lot, there does seem to be a sizeable minority of people with dysphoria that do choose not to transition and again that is reflected in the support group I’m on.

The daughter of a work colleague went through the Tavistock and decided in the decided not to transition because she didn’t want to be medicalised for the rest of her life.

@bitheby

I wonder how many people realise that gender questioning is so normal, especially for same sex attracted people and maybe for autistic people, who knows. I am both and it's certainly something I went through. I loved being mistaken for a boy when I was pre-school age and it happened a lot as I had short hair and only wanted to wear 'boy' clothes. I recoiled against anything 'girly' very strongly.

I didn't grow up to be trans though. And so I wonder fundamentally what the difference is between me and your child? Because my fear is that there isn't a difference other than I never had the exposure to this ideology nor the opportunity to latch onto it as an option.

I asked a health care worker at the gender clinic what the difference between me who wanted to be a boy as a child but outgrew it and my child was. We don't know, he said. I was struck speechless at the time. Later I wished I challenged him but at the time I was gobsmacked that he didn't have some explanation. I found I had to conclude that the only difference was that nobody would have taken me seriously.

@334bu

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4081055-sweden-sharp-decline-in-referrals-to-gd-clinics

This thread contains some interesting links you might find interesting.

Thank you, someone further up also linked to the Swedish studies.

Historically, the vast majority of gender dysmorphic girls grew up and moved on

there is no evidence at all that this change in treatment of such girls is a positive step forward that will greatly enhance their future happiness. That's why you can't spot those old none transitioners, they are not easily distinguished from the rest of the population.

@bitheby

I wonder how many people realise that gender questioning is so normal, especially for same sex attracted people and maybe for autistic people, who knows. I am both and it's certainly something I went through. I loved being mistaken for a boy when I was pre-school age and it happened a lot as I had short hair and only wanted to wear 'boy' clothes. I recoiled against anything 'girly' very strongly.

I didn't grow up to be trans though. And so I wonder fundamentally what the difference is between me and your child? Because my fear is that there isn't a difference other than I never had the exposure to this ideology nor the opportunity to latch onto it as an option.

I think that's a natural fear and one that is clearly replicated throughout the thread, I guess the answer to this may well be that maybe there is some sense of finding a tribe to fit with creating a sense of belonging and a group for those people who don't feel they fit into the neat little boxes that they should do. Or the awareness and language around being transgender is more widespread and thus people transition earlier now rather than waiting til being middle aged or older because they have the words to describe what they are experiencing?

I'm not for one minute suggesting that you are trans just providing a possible theory to explain the growth in the number of people transitioning.

There is also the idea that the youth care less/more about what gender/sex means and are playing with the concept and shaping their lives in the way that fits them best.

I'm not sure there is actually a simple answer nor will one be provided in the short term.

@TheHoneyBadger

Obviously though, as you yourself acknowledge, a child cannot grasp the impact of not being able to have children, not being able to orgasm, probably having a very very small pool of people who are willing to date them.

Maybe, (I'm making huge assumptions about your age here and please correct if I am wrong!) but then again younger generations view sexuality and gender very differently to many in my generation so finding mates might not be as challenging as you would perhaps think.

I agree on the point of sexual satisfaction, regardless of your identity this is a key part of a healthy relationship for both partners (or at least it should be, rightly or wrongly I think I would find it hard to be with a partner sexually that got no pleasure from sex at all.

@TyroTerf

For what it's worth, I don't think you're doing badly in how you're navigating this minefield of a situation. There's always room for improvement but there really isn't a manual.

In your shoes I'd be looking to depoliticise pronouns. Not challenging his, but shrugging and making light of their importance in other contexts. Leaves the door open to shift his if that feels right, while at the same time demonstrating that they're not the most important thing. Because - ideal outcome - whatever pronoun he prefers, he needs chance to learn that it's not such a big deal if people get it wrong.

If he fixates on it, he's going to run up against things that trigger the associated distress all the damned time and won't have any means of coping with it. Not a scenario you want to end up in.

By the same token, "female boy" might work a treat for now, psychologically speaking. But if he ever runs into people who insist on classifying him as a "cisfemale boy" oppressing "transfemale boys" he's going to have a major problem on his hands.

This is definitely food for thought as the use of the wrong pronouns is immensely triggering - happens very rarely but understandably my Great Aunt who is nearly 80 will get it wrong occasionally and not out of spite!

This is definitely food for thought as the use of the wrong pronouns is immensely triggering

At what point did the she/her pronouns start becoming triggering? Was there a specific event around that time?