I am the mother of a trans child ...AMA

[DoryNow]

But no bun fights please, I am not a trans activist.

Did it ever occur to you that this over anxious concern for the state of other peoples kids genitals and fertility is becoming nothing short of perverse & extremely bizarre?

If we all thought this way we'd never have got government backing on campaigns against FGM.

Of course I care about other people's kids. Of course I do. In my book it would be weird and bizarre not to.

Did it ever occur to you that this over anxious concern for the state of other peoples kids genitals and fertility is becoming nothing short of perverse & extremely bizarre?

If we all thought this way we'd never have got government backing on campaigns against FGM.

Of course I care about other people's kids. Of course I do. In my book it would be weird and bizarre not to.

Sorry for double post. Dunno what happened there.

DoryNow I'm sorry to read that the mental health services that were helping your child have been axed by your Local Authority. As you say, it's a frustrating reality for many. I'm glad that the care he's received so far has helped relieve some of the distress dysphoria causes and I hope access to such care improves for him and many others. It's so frustrating because we have so much data on how quality talking therapies can help and ensure better transition and better quality of life afterwards but it's so hard to get. I think one of the main problems with the slow route as it currently is is the lack of face time with mental health care so for too many it is a ridiculous waiting game without being given any means to help cope which is why too many are going the DIY routes which has a lot of risks.

Trauma was brought up repeatedly as there is a connection shown in some mainly American surveys of trans adults that shows a far higher rate of reported child abuse than for the general population. This is however a chicken and egg situation - are gender nonconforming kids more likely to be abused much as we know disabled kids are far more likely to be abused (and some evidence that abused kids are more likely to end up with a disability) or can trauma make gender dysphoria more severe? No one thinks it causes all cases - most think there are likely multiple roots to gender dysphoia - but there are links that need further research to ensure better care. There is also some research that says it's more common in veterans but I've not read it enough to comment. Another issue is that the term "gender dysphoria" has had it's meaning and criteria changed repeatedly over the last 20ish years by various medical organizations to the point that trying to compare over time is more like trying to compare between countries which is part of why we don't have those very needed longevity studies (other than funding). A couple decades ago when I was going through it, you could be told you had gender dysphoria and end up with one of several end diagnosis from Gender Identity Disorder to PTSD to anxiety disorders - basically, almost anything that's said to be commonly co-morbid with gender dysphoria now was previously an end diagnosis. Now we're supposed to have more consistency but there are reports coming out of many countries - including some parts of the UK - of decreasing face time with professionals and people being denied any diagnosis or care for what some of us see as more political reasons like doctors stating the person isn't wearing the 'right' clothes to be truly dysphoric. That may be part of why the World Health Organization wants to throw it out all together for something new (personally I think 'gender incongruence' sounds wishywashy and would like something that makes it clearly about the distress at our sexed characteristics).

Thank you for writing on this. It's interesting to see how things have changed over time - and how some things still need so much work. I hope the best for you and your son. I sadly have to say though, as someone involved with many trans and other dysphoric people, I think the whole system is going to need big changes if we're going to get to a point in my lifetime where we can say "look at all these happy well adjusted young trans people". I think to say that now we'd need a lot of cherry picking and I'm not seeing how any of the current changes are going to make it better for any of us. Dysphoria is hard and young people with it need more care to be well adjusted. I mean, there are reasons PTSD, depression, anxiety, & addiction runs so much higher in dysphoric people and it's not just society (they also run high in a lot of other conditions that cause chronic distress and pain).

Booboostwo You seem to have a lot of mixed up information about intersex people from your posts. People have known about intersex conditions way before we had internal scans as many present externally and through severe medical complications. There is literally old Judaic writing on different types of visibly intersex people. Intersex people are simply people with one of many disorders of sex development. Some intersex conditions are lethal without treatment and many others even with treatment life-limiting and great affect quality of life. There is a lot medicine knows about us and we are still female or male - just with disorder that affects the development of our reproductive system, sex characteristics, and much of the rest of our bodies. It is very common, for example, for us to have cardiovascular disorders, skeleton and joint problems, digestive issues, and we have a significantly higher risk of multiple types of cancers and things like stroke. Most intersex people who are female have a far higher risk of things like PCOS but really, the difference between me and any other female without a DSD is like less than one billionth of a percent genetically. I'm not that different from other women, I just have a medical disorder.

There is no link between being intersex and having dysphoria, that idea has been disproven repeatedly. Bluntly, we do not exist to prove anything about trans people and many of us are tired of people treating us as if we do. Those of us who are both are more than vocal about how they are two very different things. As others have kindly said, intersex activist and education organizations have been very clear on not wanting to be used as debate pawns in trans discussions, we have our own problems to deal with, some at odds with some trans activists who want to dismiss us as 'sex variance' which is how you're describing us which to me is quite insulting and would be like describing diabetes as a pancreatic variance. We do not disprove sexual dimorphism, if anything we prove how essential it is to humans by how much goes wrong with the slightest part being off. We do not prove anything about trans people and I think the differences between the intersex people and communities and the trans and other dysphoric people and communities should be respected better than to try to smash us together or used to prop each other up. All you do when you bring in intersex people to prove something about trans people is show your lack of consideration for both. The science for either group can and has to stand on its own so please stop using disorders of sex development and those of us with them as debate pawns until you can take on the pain our DSDs causes us.

ArcheryAnnie WOW.... yet again comparing this to FGM, do you know how incredibly cruel & hurtful it is to be accused of that as a parent?

Thanks.

DN4Geek I agree more talking therapies services are needed overall for children, it is well documentented how overstretched CAMHS is for example & getting early help is a nightmare, your child has to have actually made a suicide attempt in some areas before you get seen.

Thanks for the thoughtful input.

Dory I wasn't comparing it to FGM - I was just pointing out that there is a valid case for "anxious concern for the state of other peoples kids genitals" amongst the general public, and refuting your quite frankly scandalous accusation that there's something "perverse" about that.

I sometimes wonder if the reason lots of teenage girls are going down this route is because child mental health support is crap. I'm no psychiatrist but I wonder if it seems easier for people to express pain in a way that fits a narrative. I knew several girls when I was a teen who cut themselves along with styling themselves in a goth/emo way. If they were teens now I wonder if they would have gone down a gender dysphoria route.

I know it's speculation but how do you think your child may have experienced this process if born at a time when gender dysphoria wasn't so mainstream?

DoryNow, I only mentioned that I have a professional interest in medical history because very few people have.

Most people assume that medicine is all about the science. But medicine has proved itself as vulnerable to fashions as other fields.

The Satanic child abuse scandal and false memory syndrome are just two examples. In both cases there was widespread acceptance among the great and the good, plenty of positive media coverage and lots of harm done before the medical community recognised its error. I believe - and fear - child transition will follow the same trajectory.

Dory I just wanted to add here that I do wish all the best for you and for your child. We all parent in the best way we can, and we make decisions based on the best information we have at the time.

I've not been posting here because I want to criticise you or your choices. I've been posting here so that other parents facing the same situation as you - who might naturally come to this thread looking for advice and information - can have access to information and options that either weren't available to you, or that you considered and rejected. Just as you were free to choose your path, they should be free to choose theirs on the basis of as much information as possible.

I've not been posting here because I want to criticise you or your choices. I've been posting here so that other parents facing the same situation as you - who might naturally come to this thread looking for advice and information - can have access to information and options that either weren't available to you, or that you considered and rejected. Just as you were free to choose your path, they should be free to choose theirs on the basis of as much information as possible.

YY, Archery.

This is not directed at you, let alone any sort of attack, DoryNow. You and your DC have made your choices, no doubt after much soul-searching. But for the benefit of anyone looking at this thread, here is an open letter from parents and professionals concerned about ROGD.

"This letter presents what parents, scientists, and psychologists have to say about the sharp rise in transgender-identifying youth."

Please share this far and wide.

A Note About This Letter:

This letter may be a shock to people who have been assuming that gender dysphoric youth have extensive investigation and evaluation before they are affirmed in their transgender identification.

We as parents have experienced the lack of mental health evaluation, the immediate acceptance of the youth's self-diagnosis, and the effort to silence and ignore parents’ questions and concerns when the youth's claim does not match the child's life experience.

The research into what it means when a youth says they are transgender is in its infancy. There is no biological-based diagnosis or proven scientific theories and the clinical evidence evaluating different treatment paradigms is extremely lacking.

Yet, our children are immediately affirmed in their transgender belief by psychologists, schools are enacting policies to affirm a youth's claim of being transgender without question, schools are preventing the parents from being informed about their child's claim as well as "educating" elementary school children that their gender is a choice that can be medically altered if it doesn't match their "assigned birth sex."

It's time to bring ethical scientific debate and evidence-based care to our youth. This letter is meant to aid in that cause in a non-discriminatory, diversity-embracing fashion.

Our target audience is very broad with the first wave directed to schools and subsequent waves directed to psychologists, media, politicians, and physicians.

You want a campaign, get your cronies on to the lack of funding for ALL child mental health issues.

There is a cynical part of me that wonders if puberty blockers are in some cases used as a cheap alternative to trying to evaluate and get to the bottom of a teenagers mental health issues.

Cronies? Wow. FWIW I do campaign for better access - not least because I have a child with ASD and am terrified of them being swallowed by the transborg

www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/supreme_court_preview/briefs_2016_2017/16-273_amicus_pet_mchugh.authcheckdam.pdf

Interesting court brief here about the issues.

"Puberty suppression hormones prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics, arrest bone growth, decrease bone accretion, prevent full organization and maturation of the brain, and inhibit fertility. Cross-gender hormones increase a child’s risk for coronary disease and sterility. Oral estrogen, which is administered to gender dysphoric boys, may cause thrombosis, cardiovascular disease, weight gain, hypertriglyceridemia, elevated blood pressure, decreased glucose tolerance, gallbladder disease, prolactinoma, and breast cancer. Similarly, testosterone administered to gender dysphoric girls may negatively affect their cholesterol; increase their homocysteine levels (a risk factor for heart disease); cause hepatotoxicity and polycythemia (an excess of red blood cells); increase their risk of sleep apnea; cause insulin resistance; and have unknown effects on breast, endometrial and ovarian tissues. Finally, girls may legally obtain a mastectomy at sixteen, which carries with it its own unique set of future problems, especially because it is irreversible."

The treatments being given to children and young people with gender dysphoria would be brutal enough if it could be guaranteed that all of them are in fact transgender. But the evidence suggests that many are not. I appreciate that you and your DC are entirely sure of your decisions. However sterilizing other children for a condition they may well not even have seems truly appalling.

I think this is what is so frightening. Yes, there are side affects to most treatments/medications but in any other medical situation, you know the person has the condition. In this situation the side affects and long term irreversible impact seems far worse than most medical interventions yet the treatment is given when there is actually a good chance it will resolve itself on it’s own.

Also, does OP or anyone else know if when the trans person is being assessed by psychologists, clinicians, etc they take into account the way their person dresses, has their hair and what their hobbies/interests are? I’m just wondering if a boy who goes in wearing make up, long hair and a dress and saying they enjoy painting nails and playing netball is more likely to be approved for treatment than a boy who goes in wearing jeans, has short hair and enjoys football and car mechanics. Even if both say they are ‘in the wrong body’ and ‘feel like a girl’.

That's a fascinating document, busyboysmum. Started, but it's going to take a bit of reading, especially on a phone.

Prawn Archery I have no probem with the basis of your agenda, and it's great to ensure info is out there for all. That is what MN is for.

What I DO have an issue with is your style of delivery, being overly insistant thet YOU are right and others wrong, claiming you are not being personal but we trans mums DO take it personally, we have had a lot of the sort of belligerent questioning seen upthread, and it. never.stops.

You claim MN is the only forum that allows your discussions, well how about others are allowed to talk about the trans kids side? Every single time there is a trans thread on any board you all come bundling in demanding posters ask very personal questions.

(You even said you are lucky we've been quite gentle with you, so that shows there is a concerted thread invasion)

Of course you are now saying I've not been posting here because I want to criticise you or your choices

Hahahaha forgive me if I spit my tea out.

You have accused trans parents of "sterilising children"
You have accused us of stuffing our children full of hormones
You have said you are campaiging to highlight this issue as you did with FGM (thereby comparing the two situations as similarly abusive & mutilating)

Because I can stand up for myself a little better now I can handle this.
But this about the 3rd or 4th time over the years I have been confronted by you on a trans thread & it is well known by many that a sensible discussion cannot take place without it deteriorating into a bun fight.

I would have more repsect for you if you would maybe signpost others to your groups , rather than domineering the thread , just for once.

MN has now got a repuation for being transphobic sadly which I know the majority of posters aren't ( and at heart I don't believe you are) I just wish there would be as much support for us as there are seems to be for you in being allowed a safe space.

I have found MN to be a wonderfully supportive place for other matters & it is still for many of us, full of hilarious, knowlegeable supportive women. (and men !) But your strident, overbearing tone on this subject (trans children ) is just too much & it's putting people off joining or staying which I think is very sad.

littledinaco

Also, does OP or anyone else know if when the trans person is being assessed by psychologists, clinicians, etc they take into account the way their person dresses, has their hair and what their hobbies/interests are? I’m just wondering if a boy who goes in wearing make up, long hair and a dress and saying they enjoy painting nails and playing netball is more likely to be approved for treatment than a boy who goes in wearing jeans, has short hair and enjoys football and car mechanics. Even if both say they are ‘in the wrong body’ and ‘feel like a girl’

I think that's underestimating the skills of the assessing team. They get all shapes & sizes & variations comng through the doors just as with adults. And would it not be the very gender stereotyping we all hate if they did so?

However part of the transition process before assessment for medical treatment can be bringing a diary of thoughts & feelings of the path since starting to socially transition & learning to be more comfortable dressed in whatever style suits you as the new persona.
But pysches are not daft they know when someone is playing the part or genuinely trans. it would be very difficult for a child to keep up a pretense for years I would think.

DoryNow another emotional post in which you make personal attacks. Please don't do this. It's against the spirit, as they say.

If you can't cope with opposing views perhaps don't start threads on highly contentious topics.

That court brief is from a trans boy called Gavin Grimm who had been using the boys loos quite happily at his US school after coming out & notifying them ,until some parent had a hissy fit & (initially) succesfully sued the state . But it went all the way to the Supreme Court in a test case with ACLU

The lengths to which the prosecution went to defend their case was amazing, and you are going to quote their "findings " as evidence when its obvious they would call on every spurious report they could to make their point.

Prawn Oh I'm not making personal attacks any more than you are, you don't like it when I bite back & reflect your own words back to you .

I could get a lot more personal but as you say not in the spirit.

I did not start this thread as a contentious issuse but as a personal reflection on a trans mums journey.

You have jumped all over it with your campaign /agenda nd I am merely attempting to fight my corner in my own way.

There are frequently threads on other contentious issues , it is quite possible to look into them, think "oh dear" if its upsetting to you and leave them to it.

You do not need to fight every bloody thread every time.

You know what this smacks of? Gaslighting.

Posters poke & prod and question every turn of phrase and utterance and then say
" oh no dear calm down we aren't being critical, we are just trying to help by pointing out the truth and make sure you really know what going on as you clearly are not bright enough to understand it"

POSTED UPTHREAD BY MNHQ FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FORGOTTEN

"Thanks, OP, for your openness, and for what is a really interesting thread.

We just really wanted to issue our usual reminder that Mumsnet is all about making parents' lives easier and to continue to keep that in mind when asking the OP questions or posting on the thread."