I am the mother of a trans child ...AMA

[DoryNow]

But no bun fights please, I am not a trans activist.

prawn wasn't saying you were making it up ,merely asking for evidence to aid the wider picture you are trying to get me to see.

Evidence is not provided in the MN links with more holes than swiss cheese due to deletions. The few medical links appear to be a lot more cautious than your threads suggest when you follow them back to theoriginal research.

However it is getting late so I shall have a look in more detail over the weekend as you have taken the trouble to provide them, thank you.

Maybe you would care to read these in return.

theconversation.com/why-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-is-bad-science-92742

growinguptransgender.com/2017/11/27/puberty-blockers-gnrha/

growinguptransgender.com/2018/08/14/dr-jo-olson-kennedy-on-puberty-blockers-and-hormones/

Oakthorn
"However I think the slow process of transitioning makes it more certain that the young people who truly feel that they are in the wrong body are committed and absolutely sure it's the right thing for them."

I totally agree, the long long process to getting anywhere near the medical stage is, although frustrating for the child , essential I believe to allow for adequate assessment by HCP's. The other essential factor is unconditional love and support which helps the child feel valued and listened to so they will be able to work through what it is they really need.

No parent chooses for their child to be trans, and no one would be more happy than they if their child turned out to be only gay.

Thanks for the kind words, have a good weekend.

Round of applause for MipMipMip

Great thread Dory, thanks.

madmomma Lots of contributions all adds to the discussion.

There are debates to be had. Big ones. There are things happening that I hate. But we need to remember that the OP is not responsible for that.

I think what you've said is fair, MipMipMip. What also needs to be recognised is that those of us who have weighed into this discussion in a way that the OP is vociferously objecting to aren't challenging her personal experience, but offering alternative information when she has made sweeping statements and got things wrong, not about her own situation but about the research, the organisations she is valorising, and the climate in which these actions are being taken.

I wouldn't have come into this thread at all, apart possibly from to wish her and her child all the best, if she'd stuck to her own personal experiences.

*ArcheryAnnie

but offering alternative information when she has made sweeping statements and got things wrong, not about her own situation but about the research, the organisations she is valorising, and the climate in which these actions are being taken.

But who is to say I am wrong and you are right? Why can it not be two sides of a difficult situation with opposing views? If you want to inform people, bring evidence to the table, offer alternative thoughts in a positve calm manner.

Don't insist time and again that families are point blank wrong, who have gone throught this process with mulitple consultations with specialists who are experienced professionals in their fields. Professional who OF COURSE ensure we have all the latest stats to weigh up the pros & cons of the situation before progressing. They'd be shot if they didn't !!!!

You do seem to get hung up on the view that I am some handmaiden of Mermaids or other support groups, when I am not. I have looked at many different angles as is my right & it is my right to choose the ones to use or gain information from. It is also my choice to listen to to any valid information from your side of the fence and choose to believe it or not just as you have with mine.

I wouldn't have come into this thread at all, apart possibly from to wish her and her child all the best, if she'd stuck to her own personal experiences oh please, don't add more insults to the thread

It's as if a klaxon goes off in the Gender Crit Common Room & you all alert each other & pile in - it was very noticceable that the first few pages were civilised Q&A's but then the inevitable bun fight started.

In the past I would have thrown the towel in, but this time I have stuck to my guns and tried to keep calm (failed miserably some nights I will hold my hand up!) and keep the thread as a discussion but sadly there is only the GC way or the wrong way it seems which is a shame.

The first link isn't supported by the facts. ROGD is happening. The stats demonstrate it, with the Tavistock reporting that last year 713 boys were referred to them as opposed to 1806 girls. A recent peer reviewed paper analyses the process:

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

The second link, from Growing Up Transgender, starts off all upbeat about puberty blockers but is then obliged to report on:

Recent claims from the UK Gender Identity Service

In spite of the consensus and evidence in support of puberty blockers as safe and reversible, there have been recent reports from families with children in the UK Gender Identity Service that clinicians have advised against them. One clinician is reported as saying “puberty blockers may not be as reversible as we thought” and there have been reported attempts to dissuade dysphoric pubertal youth from puberty blockers. More worryingly there are also reports from parents that on occasion clinicians have stated that they will not permit referral to the Endocrinology service (for reversible puberty blockers) “until we are completely sure of things”.

Worryingly? Are you kidding? You hear there are safely concerns about medication your child is being prescribed and you're worried that they won't be getting it?

It continues, saying that Bernadette Wren, the Head of Psychology at the UK Children’s Gender Service has been described as “nervous” of an approach where “children who begin taking blockers early on in puberty, followed immediately by cross-sex hormones, will never produce mature eggs or sperm of their own”. Wren continues, “Can a 12-, 13-, 14-year-old imagine how they might feel as a 35-year-old adult, that they have agreed to a treatment that compromises their fertility or is likely to compromise their fertility?”

The Head of Psychology at the UK Children’s Gender Service is saying pretty much exactly what I've said

The third link is a piece reporting a presentation (and a sales pitch) by an American paediatrician, Jo Anna Olson. Dr Olson advocates puberty blockers for children as young as 10. However she insists that trans is not a MH condition, which leaves me scratching my head. If it's not a MH issue then WTF is she treating kids for?

She is married to Aydin Olson Kennedy, who fought for a child with Down's syndrome in an ICU to have a double mastectomy. They are both paid representatives of a pharmaceutical company that sells the puberty blockers Dr Olson prescribes.

What also needs to be recognised is that those of us who have weighed into this discussion in a way that the OP is vociferously objecting to aren't challenging her personal experience, but offering alternative information when she has made sweeping statements and got things wrong, not about her own situation but about the research, the organisations she is valorising, and the climate in which these actions are being taken.

That sums up my position, ArcheryAnnie. I have only responded where the OP was making claims for which I have opposing information.

I have made no personal attacks. The same cannot be said of the OP.

ROGD is an invention of groups of concerned parents who are determined to see their troubled children as being pushed into "transing" it has no scientific proof, in the same way parents panicked about groups of children being gay years ago.

The link to that survey fails to identify that the 3 parental groups who provided the results are all of the above group. Obviously this is going to bias the results. Also a lot of the sources from the authors internet trawling were taken piecemeal ignoring bits that didn't fit the narrative.

Yet again you cherry pick bits of the report that suit you. The article is comparing global research (with loads of current stats )that supports careful use of puberty "blocking" and asking WHY the UK GIDS is being so cautious.

If some clinicians are working in this way, this appears to be both outside of the UK Protocols and not in alignment to the accepted international good practice. While it is as yet unclear how widespread this reluctance to prescribe puberty blockers is, the crux seems to centre on a ‘feeling’ by some in the UK children’s gender service that puberty blockers ‘might change outcomes’, making children ‘continue as trans’ who may otherwise have ‘shifted to a cisgender identity’.

If you read the WHOLE article it contains multiple evidences from Australian, AMrican & Canadian specialists that obviosuly have larger cohorts of data to offer more statistically significant results.

Obviously many are flagging up cautions, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't, any research offers the pros & cons. But many of them state that ON BALANCE given that there have not been long term results available, blockers are effective and reversible.
As a parent obviously you need to know there are possible side effect and you are grateful for all the details, doesn't mean the treatment hasn't got HUGE benefits vs possible side effects.

One has to consider also the advantages - if the child has puberty paused, they can have continued counselling & support whilst in a better state of mind to carry on normal life as a child untroubled by the looming horror (to them) of puberty

They can then if they wish go through puberty having been fully supported by their families and having had their fears validated and hopefully allayed.

However if they then go on to transition fully they have cross sex hormones without going through the dreaded puberty, and then later do not have to undergo radical surgeries to transition. The outcomes for all children whether they transition or not are better if they have family support & validation. There needs to be more,larger studies on this but this articles link to some encouraging studies.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/26/crucial-study-transgender-children-mental-health-family-support

Dr Olson is a global expert in gender studies of course she will have links to some drug companies that's how they ALL get the funding for her research these days. Sponsorship enables larger more detailed studies. Does not mean they are not bound by all the usual ethical and legal responsibilities, same as over here.

Gender dysphoria had not been considered a MH issue for some time now either over there or here. It is a sexual health disorder for purposes of classification

www.newsweek.com/being-transgender-not-mental-illness-world-health-organization-says-983869

www.refinery29.uk/2018/06/202340/transgender-mental-illness-gender-dysphoria-who

Prawn you are funny, as if I could possibly personally attack all of you and still be allowed to post !

Interesting reply to the ROGD malarky.

twitter.com/samdylanfinch/status/1030521533771395072

Describing me as a soul draining neative vampire is absolutely a personal attack and I have reported it as such, OP. I'm assuming 'neative' is a typo.

As for the debate, your experience and beliefs have been laid out in detail which I assume is the whole point of an AMA thread. You have made it all very clear. Thanks.

I don't have a question, I just want to say I think you're fantastic for supporting your child through what must be a very difficult time for them.

That story about the young girl with Downs Syndrome is utterly horrific.

I'm not sure what your trying to prove with that Twitter link but it certainly isn't that ROGD doesn't exist.

There's a thread on FWR today discussing an excellent article from Janice Turner in the Times about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, girls and the recent research published by Lisa Littman.

Parents of teens affected by ROGD are discussing the issue. The article is pretty bleak:

"...if children take the puberty-blocking drug Lupron then proceed to cross-sex hormones they won’t have any fertility to preserve. Their gametes can’t mature enough to bank. Indeed if your natal puberty is blocked you may never orgasm or feel sexual desire. Imagine the outcry if, say, disabled children were effectively neutered at 11.

prawn I think I meant to aim that phrase as a collective one but regardless. There were times when I hold my hand up admit I lost my cool in the heat of exchange.

I 'm sure it has happened to you before. Feel free to ask for deletion if you really are so offended.

RiverTam Not trying to prove anything ,I believe I said it was interesting.
The posters experience is (I believe) typical of the sort of children being labelled with ROGD, without parental support & acknowledgement that there is a problem (without labelling it as GD neccessarily) it can get blown up into a much longer lasting and distressing problem for all parties.

That person says this happened at 14. No mention of ever, prior to that, having any feelings of ‘being in the wrong body’. That is the definition of ROGD, surely. And makes the point of having co-morbid psychological problems (OCD). That is very common with trans people and often goes untreated or gets swamped by the trans side of things.

But anyone who then links to the utterly vile Zinnia Jones is someone I can safely ignore.

No but he was in some sort of mental distress, the parents didn't know what to do so they did nothing, which they now regret.

He needed his parents to give him unconditional support and get him some professional help, to tell him that they didn't understand what he was going through but that didn't matter they loved him & wanted to get him help.

There is not always a prior history of GD, each child should be treated differently.

The link was to a Sam Dylan Finch, I don't follow him but it popped up on my twitter & I just thought it an interesting insight from the other side.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenagers-have-become-an-experiment-87vn5m8fw?shareToken=58711ec61b97f6076057ea98c30ebf5a

He linked to Zinnia Jones. Zinnia Jones is a foul misogynistic specimen, and anyone who thinks ZJ is worth a damn is someone I can’t take seriously.

Yes, he was in distress but that doesn’t mean a) he didn’t have ROGD and b) that his parents (who yes, could well have handled things better or differently) should have encouraged transition at 14. Maybe if they’d supported him with watch and wait rather than let him get in the clutches of the ZJs of the Internet, he may not have transitioned at all.

Social contagion is a real thing. Which is why Mermaids breaking the Samaritans guidelines with the endless banging on about suicide is so dangerous.

Oh FFS sake when will you all actually listen to anything that is said??

Yes, he was in distress but that doesn’t mean a) he didn’t have ROGD and b) that his parents (who yes, could well have handled things better or differently) should have encouraged transition at 14

CHILDREN DO NOT TRANSITION STRAIGHT AWAY JUST BC THEY SAY THEY ARE TRANS

If a child says they are trans you talk to them about why they feel they are, you get other support and suggestions, you make a plan with your child to talk to people about their feelings etc etc

You DO NOT deny they have a problem, it may be they are NOT trans but by acknowledging they are distressed about something they feel you are taking them seriously.

Obviously when your child first says this it sends you into a flat spin, but by denying it you are pushing them down a spiral of self loathing and potential depression . Acknowledge they are having confusing feelings and take it from there.

You can still watch & wait.

Prawn you are funny as if I could possibly personally attack all of you and still be allowed to post!

I have been courteous throughout, simply providing links and evidence to counteract what I see as false claims of fact. Your personal attack on me, however, has been deleted.