If you had your chance to start again, would you still have had kids?

Personal growth doesn't stop when someone becomes a parent. Desire to be a parent and ambition to raise children well is no less valid than desire and ambition in paid employment. Free time enjoyed with children is no less than free time enjoyed with friends.
It's great that women can talk freely about not wanting children or not enjoying being a parent. However, women should also be able to enjoy it without comments about them being brainwashed by the patriarchy. It's similar to people who put down SAHM with comments about what feminists fought for, but isn't feminism about women have equality and having choice and control of their own lives?
If women enjoying motherhood and finding it worth the hard work is down to the patriarchy, what is it that makes women who have stressful careers think the reward is worth the hard work?

Spot on.

I don’t know. In many respects I can’t imagine life without them. They have given me such incredible joy.

but now they are older, the worry is relentless - I’m broken raising one of mine due to post covid MH issues. I look at my child free friends in deep envy as they globe trot. And then I feel real guilt as I feel the joy has to come with a trade off.

so probably yes but it can be very very hard and not what it was!!!

You’re asking about single parenting which is very different to doing it with a partner. It can be utterly relentless and exhausting not being able to tag team (in my experience) but then I have 2 and one has SEN. I have thought several times that being a single parent of one child would be a lot easier than feeling outnumbered and pulled in two different directions. That’s not to say I would do things differently or have regrets. If I had my time again I’d make sure I was in a better relationship!

I know two mums who have adopted children. One is honestly one of the best mums I know, she is so loving, nurturing, creative and takes such joy in her daughter. I wish I was as good a mum as she is. The other has openly told me she regrets becoming a parent (!) and that her adoptive children are ‘not nice people’. (They’re grown up now and I don’t think she sees them much.)

I wouldn't - but I would have had to have someone explain to me what it would be like in words that I would actually take on board.

If I was married now, no kids, I'd probably feel regretful. If you asked me five years ago, I would have said, totally would want kids.
But in the depths of the teenage and just becoming young adult years, I have found it hard and I worry more about their futures than I ever imagined I would.

Maybe I'll change my mind again in a few years. Either way, I'm stuck with them now! (I do love them though so there is that).

Never EVER choose to be a single mother with minimal support. I did that for years snd developed a full range of stress related illness which have without doubt added years to me and will.have reduced my life expectancy.

As pp seem to be saying- if you have one child when you are older you need to be very very financially secure snd in a calm cooperative relationship, then this seems to make happy parents. Too many too young without ebough money or support in shit housing is just a horrible quality of life for everyone.

""JLou08 · Today 18:50

Yellowhollyhocks · Today 17:00
When posters say they love their children so so much that it outweighs the hardship and burden of being a mother, it makes me think about something I read recently.
It was a feminist blog. It is along the lines of how the 'patriarcy' have instilled in the minds of women and girls that giving up their very selves, desires, ambitions, potential for personal growth and free time to devote to children for decades is how you mark yourself out as a 'good' woman and mother.
Personally, I love my children as much as the next woman, but it has been so incredibly difficult that I would not do it again. The loss of personal freedom is the worst thing about it for me.

Jlou08
Personal growth doesn't stop when someone becomes a parent. Desire to be a parent and ambition to raise children well is no less valid than desire and ambition in paid employment. Free time enjoyed with children is no less than free time enjoyed with friends.
It's great that women can talk freely about not wanting children or not enjoying being a parent. However, women should also be able to enjoy it without comments about them being brainwashed by the patriarchy. It's similar to people who put down SAHM with comments about what feminists fought for, but isn't feminism about women have equality and having choice and control of their own lives?
If women enjoying motherhood and finding it worth the hard work is down to the patriarchy, what is it that makes women who have stressful careers think the reward is worth the hard work?""

Well, there's a lot there in your comment.
I think many mothers give up on personal growth for many years- in my case, too many. Single mother with two difficult boys who never got on. It was relentless, the only direction personal growth was going was towards developing c-PTSD. No personal time, overstimulated, being on 247. I don't think this is unusual for those of us without much money or help. I do have time now they are older.

When you say the desire to be a good parent is no less valid than wanting to be good at a career, I think these aren't as comparable as you are suggesting.

You can leave a job - you can't (without a social penalty) leave your children (although the father can do this more easily), you get paid for your work, but there is no pay for the years of hard work and sacrifice of motherhood.

At work, you have legal protection by law to protect your mental and physical health, but not so much at home where you probably work harder and longer while feeling harassed and overstimulated.Many women with young children see work as a break.

In any case, I set out to be a fantastic mother myself, but the reality of the situation was more than I was designed to cope with. Aren't we evolved to parent in groups? - no wonder it can feel like too much.

And as for the free time with children being equal to spending free time with adults - this wasn't the case for me. Time alone with the children was demanding and hard work, but if there were other adults around as well, then it was enjoyable.

All valid because that's your personal experience. It's not a universal experience, it's not my experience. I work as a social worker, for me work is a lot more stressful than parenting. Leaving isn't easy, all my skills, knowledge and experience are in childcare and social care which pays pittance so I feel I need to stay in this stressful job or seriously reduce my income to a level that would impact my quality of life and sense of financial security. Social work isn't great pay by any means but it's still almost double what I'd get if I stepped down to another role in these fields.
On a positive note, that kind of job means there is constant personal growth. It also means I probably have knowledge that many parents don't have when it comes to parenting. Then there's the reason I landed in this career, I love spending time with children, which probably makes parenting more enjoyable for me.
I really don't believe I am the way I am because of the patriarchy. I'm not even what people would describe as 'feminine', I don't care about being a 'good woman' just a good person. I expect my husband to do care giving and housework too (another thing that made parenting easier for me). Your experience is yours and I'm sorry to hear you have had it hard. I just disagree on your link to patriarchy.

No. Most people I know post kids are either divorced or just tolerate their spouse. If a single parent it's hard to find someone decent as a partner. Kids are expensive and a lot of parents are stuck in jobs they hate just to pay the bills and go on one "holiday' to a campsite each year.

Yes. It is the best thing I've done. I always knew I wanted children. It isn't always easy though and to do it alone is hard. Your free time and money is eaten up a lot. What ever you decide might lead to regret.

Yes but with a different man

Mine are grown up, one is rewarding and one is a selfish cow. I love her, rarely see her and often wonder if it was all worth it.

I’m sorry to hear that. I do remember my sister going through a selfish phase as a young adult. I hope your daughter changes as she gets older. At least you have a good relationship with your other daughter x 🌺

Yes. I had children in my late 30s/just turned 40. Wish I'd done it sooner, just so I could have spent more time with them in my life not because of fitness or anything else. I didn't really think I wanted children but in the end left it up to fate, and it's really surprised me how much I've enjoyed it. Yes there are a LOT of challenges that come with parenthood but it's balanced by the love you have for this little person. Nothing like coming home to shouts of "Mummy!" and loads of hugs.

I'm aware though that the research shows there are a significant minority who do regret it. Unfortunately impossible to know until you do it.

I do know a lot of older people who are very lonely and don't have children/grandchildren. Not a guarantee of having support in your older age but it's worth bearing in mind that it does give you a connection to a younger generation.

Well I was unable to have children due to infertility but I’m not worried about loneliness in my old age. Those of us without children are often better at maintaining wider social networks as we age rather than becoming dependent on children and grandchildren for company. Plenty of people end up living too far away from their parents to provide support anyway. And I’d rather be childless than have children who can’t be bothered.

I haven’t read the whole thread but I was pregnant at 19, mum at 20. Had my next at 25.
my first born has then gone on to have his first at 18, obviously didn’t work out. It’s a long story!
I adore my children, I would do anything for them and I have!! I consider my DD (youngest) my best friend!
I guess what I am saying is that I’m so happy I had them so young, it was terrifying sometimes but we made it and now I can live my life!!

Yes absolutely, its possibly the best decision I made, I love parenting our two. I adopted our first as a single parent, it was a great experience. Our second was adopted within a relationship.

I wish I had done it earlier as then we could have had potentially three rather than two, but at the same I don’t wish that as we wouldn’t have our son.

💯 yes. I am lucky to have a great career and lovely family and friends, so I think I would have experienced fulfilment if I had remained childfree. But, having children has been the best thing I’ve done. There are hard moments but, in the main, it’s just brilliant. I love being a mum far more than I could have imagined. I’d have started a bit earlier with the benefit of hindsight, so that we could have had a fourth.

I do accept that having an involved partner, financial stability and the ability to manage with minimal sleep have probably been factors in making the joy more accessible.

Definitely. Some parents say they know they’d have led an equally fulfilling life without having kids, but I don’t believe I would have.

I'm really sorry this has been your journey and of course you didn't have a choice over this. Agreed children can be useless, or actively unpleasant in some cases. And of course this is not the main reason to have kids, just it is a factor for me (and I'm going to do my best to raise pleasant, thoughtful, kind children, fingers crossed eh!).

My top advice in your situation is have friends of all ages (you may do) as the lonely ones all have friends the same age who end up dying/ too ill to be in contact. Having children and grandchildren is only one way of keeping us connected to younger generations.

Yes, there have been wonderful times and some tough ones which have challenged me and help me grow a lot as a person so I can be a better parent

Love my kids so much but the newest climate science is not good amd I often feel very very guilty about their likely future. I think I’ve been selfish in having them.

You say you enjoy life as it is. What do you think adopting a child will do to enhance your life?

I couldn’t say I’d not have my kids if I could go back as I love them so much and now can’t imagine life without them. However, like others have said it’s a hard slog, of course there’s enjoyment too, but it’s a huge change putting someone else first all the time.

I wonder if those saying yes 100% all have family close and a strong network of help and are quite laid back people.

My DH and I had no help whatsoever and both had to work. It has been relentless (that are now late teens) I also think it helps if you just allow yourself to enjoy them. I have been full of angst about most aspects of parenting, constantly overthinking and worrying. I am now worrying about their future and the world they will potentially bring their own children into given what is happening politically and environmentally. Given that, I would advise anyone not to bring a child into the world but make the world a better place for a child already born. Fooster, adopt,do charity work. All will be fulfilling.
I do love my children but I think about the bigger picture of whether it was the right thing to do.

The relentlessness and worry of having children is not easier than the wistful yearning of not having them.

Yes, I’ve loved being a mum most of the time but I’ve had easy, healthy children.

Working in a nursery I’ve seen many children with SEN needs, behavioural issues and health issues and their parents are having a much harder experience. I’m glad I had children before working there as I might have thought twice about having any due to the potential challenges that could happen.