To move DS1's school to avoid him getting excluded?

@stuckntired have you had any conversation with the pair of them that asks them what they think their lives will look like when everyone washes their hands of them? Pretty miserable. Have they thought about any of that? What do they think they will get?

So what's happened at home as a result of DS2s behaviour at school today?

OK. There are a few things you've said that are red flags for me.

Let's call isolation rooms reflection rooms, how have the school only got 1? If there's an issue between students, where are they both meant to go?

The boys leave lessons and wander about in the corridors, how? There's people on duty in the corridors for this exact reason. The boys don't listen to them? Seriously? I work in THE toughest school in the area for about 25 miles and the kids still do as they're told by pastoral in the corridors. A little thing we like to call respect because we spend hours building those relationships. And yes, as a 5ft 3" woman nearing 60 I can still get the 6ft 3" lads to do what they're meant to be doing.

This bit is really interesting: one of your sons used to have a productive relationship with a PE teacher and things were better then, but the PE teacher left and now it's all gone to shit. Why? Because there is no other teacher that the kid trusts. The HOY doesn't seem to have enough time because they're also teaching, where's their assistant HOY or whatever? Like we have teaching HOYs but we know the job's too big so we also have assistant HOYs. Where's the principle in all of this? Where's the assistant principle? The form tutor(s)?

Sounds as if the kids have been put on behaviour reports and then what next? What's the next step after the behaviour report? Because it feels like this next step should have happened in Y8.

Sorry, but you can fault the school (and I say this as a teacher who repeatedly deals with parents who are faulting us for no good reason). Education has been saying for at least the last 10 years that all behaviour is communication. Do the school have any idea what your boys are communicating?

he should be allowed to do PE instead.
So PE is still important to him. You mentioned school football, but he could easily join your local football or another sports club. It sounds like he really needs it.

Neither of them have shown any interest in cadets tbh and I dont think forcing them to go would be very productive for anyone. Theyd probably spend the whole time moaning and refusing to join in and Id be back where I started
You won't know until you try. They might not even know it exists. Their whole life seems to revolve around school, you need to frame it as doing something new outside school.

Life does not end with bad GCSE grades, and you need to show them opportunities and life beyond school.

This might be more important than you think. Boys/young men lacking a trusted male figure in their life often feel that most in their teens. Have you looked up boys' mentorship programmes? This is for London but there's very likely to be one near you

https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/education-and-youth/young-londoners/new-deal-young-people/find-or-become-mentor-young-people

They can complain as much as they want but the more they defy you (going out when not allowed and possibly stealing) then the longer it's going to be before they get them back.

I'd be tempted to empty their room while they're at school, take everything but their beds, bed clothes and a few outfits. They can earn their stuff back day by day as they prove to you that they are going to respect and listen to you.

Contact the local shops and get them banned? An unfriendly word from a police officer?

I know you're exasperated and want to let off steam, but you're being negative and saying no to quite a lot of advice from here.

Hardly fair on the cadets who want to take part and can behave themselves. And they are getting quite old for it now. Most start at 13. I doubt cadets would keep them if they didn't behave or put in a bit of work

I feel so sorry for the other students and teachers who have to deal with your feral children in class. The other students are not able to learn because the teachers time is having to be spent dealing with your boys. You need to get tougher, you should have put boundaries in place years ago instead of being a pushover. What other school would want your son?

OP, how are you getting on with the school? Do you have an appointment booked to see them face to face to discuss the current situation and what they can offer in terms of time table/class adjustment or pastoral support? Don’t rely on phone calls from them at the end of the day, be proactive, insist on a meeting. Ask them to open an Early Help Assessment and use the regular, minuted, meetings as a vehicle to access support from the wider local offer such as Targetted Youth, Mentors and Police.

Have you made contact with other local schools, do any seem amenable? Have you booked meetings? Again, don’t rely on just phone calls with a member of the admin team - they don’t have the power to do anything other than say they are full or not. Ask for meetings with the head/principal/whoever deals with admissions.

Have you spoken to the Local Authority, police or other local charities that offer signposting to agencies/charities that can offer targeted family/teen support? There were some good ideas earlier in the thread, but there is also something called Targeted Youth Support (or similar names) in every local area. Having an open Early Help Assessment will also enable/facilitate access.

If you can share your county/borough/local authority, someone on here might be able to provide specific places to contact.

Do you check what they're looking at online? The fact that they have no friends and yet still want their phones so desperately makes me wonder what they've got into online. Their disrespect of you makes me think Tate brothers and the like. And their disregard of authority suggests they're picking that up from somewhere.

Give the staff a rest and send him somewhere else.So many pupils like this atm.

Unless your knock back from Early Help was very recent maybe try them again as the situation is getting worse. I'm sorry no organisation seems willing to help you, early intervention can save so many tears later on.

Early Help have probably said they can’t help you because the form requesting services is opened (and lead) by a professional service - normally the school. When they say they can’t help it’s because Early Help do not provide services directly, but co-ordinate services referred to through the early help process BUT they should have explained this to you and told you how to ask for the school to open the assessment.

Early Help is exactly what you need - insist the school to do this during your meeting. Please see screen shots and visit this website.

https://www.yournottsdirectory.org.uk/directory/services/the-early-help-unit

I'm so sorry OP that you're not getting enough help with this situation. It must be so difficult xx

I would suggest emailing whoever you are meeting at the school tomorrow and saying that as part of your meeting you’d like to open an Early Help Assessment in order for the school to co-ordinate access to the support available from the Local Authority and asking that the members of staff who would be responsible for this attend the meeting.

There is quite a bit of paperwork to complete, and schools often have specific members of staff who are responsible for this, and registering the form, they may not to be able to meet you at short notice tomorrow, but if you don’t ask, they definitely won’t be there.

If during your meeting tomorrow they can’t open an early help because the right member of staff isn’t available, or they haven’t allocated enough time to do this, then ask for a meeting as soon as possible - and after then meeting email putting your request in writing.

Hopefully the tone of my responses to you make it clear I am trying to help, but I’m afraid that you are going to have to up your parenting game non the less. Many of your responses are coming across as “I’ve tried that, but…” which just isn’t good enough. You have to keep doing it, and you have to be consistent. If you are offered parenting support by the local authority, or support for the boys from targeted youth, they will echo this too, and, if you don’t do it, they will simply stop offering their help. Ultimately, if you’ve been given the advice and the tools to help, and don’t do it (and the advice and tools you are given will echo exactly what posters have been saying about boundaries and expectations) then, there is no-one and nothing to blame but the parenting for anything that happens outside of the school day - whether that is shoplifting, involvement with anti-social behaviour, poor use of social media etc. Also, even if it does have during the school day, your actions as a response to that will either support the school or undermine them. You need to really realise this, and take it on board, and as hard as it is do what you are advised, you have to do it. This situation is getting worse, so, what you are doing is not working you will have to do it someone else’s way.

If he has been circulating pictures of naked children, then this needs reporting to the police. That’s shocking.
Why don’t you get them basic phones that can just call and text?

I do check what I can on their phones but obviously theyre 15 and they find ways around things. I dont know what they are looking at all the time

We have you not taken them completely ? If they are asking for nudes frankly I'd be taking the phones away completely to protect them TBH.

If they are talking about exclusions - is a pupil referal unit place being suggested?

I think you can only be very frank with the school - you have no control over them - you've asked for SS and early years help - been told no - you are not coping with them nothing you say has had any effect - what if any help way forward are they suggesting because you are stuck.

Get rid of the phones and the games consoles totally if you get worn down. They’ve learnt there aren’t consequences if they wear you down. Change the WiFi password. They don’t get any of those things back until they have shown a sustained improvement in attitude and behaviour at school. At least until the end of the school year. They aren’t mature enough to handle them resoonsibly so they Donny get them. If they absolutely need a phone get one of the cheap brick phone with strong parental controls on. if they misuse those they’ll have to go too I’m afraid.

I’d suggest seeing if the school will consider a managed move to different schools. They absolutely need to be separated and need a fresh start. This will affect GCSEs but it doesn’t sound like they’ll be much better staying where they are for GCSEs.

Agree with seeing if social services would help. I think a parenting class would help at least. This is going to take a while to turn round tbh they’ve seemingly been allowed to get away with being disrespectful and a PITA for a while.