To move DS1's school to avoid him getting excluded?

Removing phones is probably counter productive at this stage. They will just get them from other sources and possibly get involved with organised crime.

How did the meeting go with school OP?

Separating them seems essential. I know you said you didn't want them to go to a PRU, but I know a teenage boy who was absolutely turned around by a PRU. If one of them was in a PRU and the other wasn't, that would separate them.

I do agree with no smartphones. A brick phone for emergencies, calls and texts only. Get rid of the smartphones out of the house -either a friend of yours stores them at their house, or just sell/get rid. Yes they will moan and moan, but stand firm. Don't just return devices because you're sick of the moaning. If they know the phones are out of the house/you don't have them yourself any more, moaning at you will be pointless.

Them apparently having money to buy drinks, etc, when you aren't giving them any money, is concerning. Either they are involved in county lines and being paid for delivering drugs, or they are stealing money from you or someone else, or shoplifting. I hope they don't have a vulnerable grandma or some elderly relative who they are getting money from.

Do not give up on asking for help. Be very clear to school/agencies that you cannot physically restrain them and you are concerned they will be/are already involved in criminal activity.

But be consistent. Don't give in to them just because they are moaning and complaining.

I came on to say this. All devices removed and you need to NOT give them back.

Maybe they need to fail and realise consequences

Could they be involved with county lines?

@stuckntired can I recommend finding out if there is a non-violent resistance parenting course available near you? I had a quick look and Nottingham seems to offer them through CAMHS at least. It might help you with how to approach the parenting side, it's really hard when the standard confiscating/grounding/etc approach doesn't work. NVR gives some different approaches and I have found it very helpful with my parenting. I know the name might sound wishy washy but it's actually strong on boundaries and building broken down relationships which it sounds like you could do with.

That's a bit unkind to the Op. She genuinely sounds very worried and is asking for advice.

@Plasmal You have hit the nail on the head about empathy. A head I know always says this is the biggest challenge with dc who have behavioural difficulties. They don’t see or comprehend how their actions affect others in a negative way. So they don’t really feel sorry if they hurt another dc or upset their parents. They don’t connect effectively with other people and are often friendless. It is a SEN and special schools exist for dc like this. There are many reasons to think these dc should have had Sen intervention much earlier but schools are not very proactive.

@ooopsupsideyourhead i see what you are saying however whilst perhaps not very strong parenting is involved usually that wouldnt lead to near exclusion without something else eg sen.
and perhaps op is saying but, however school are as bad or worse Clearly everyone on here is saying separate the 2 its affecting all the class snd both kids and yet there they are still in the same classes.
imo there is not sufficient reply from school possible for that. The school knew there were issues for years. Setting cannot possibly be more important than separating these kids. The only excuse could be if there is only 1 class for the subject.

Also its is not either parent or school to blame it is the 2 kids! I actually find it very unhealthy that its blamed on parents these kids are 15!
The op is telling them they will go to prison and the kids dont give a crap.

And also re whether it is school fault i imagine if they could fully choose they would have expelled dc2 by now.
But i still think there is likely some sen involved which the school probably should have noticed. Adhd kids in particular do ‘enjoy’ winding people up as its dopamine.

i think though this does likely happen a lot with boys they behave ok at primary but then go off the rails at secondary but because they were so sweet and no trouble parents cant switch to being strict. My dc friends brother was like this. She will never tell him off and he has run wild at secondary, bordered on expulsion. Its because they care more what peers think than teachers. And imo lack real empathy so dont care the stress they cause teachers and parents

Get rid of the phones and the games consoles totally if you get worn down. They’ve learnt there aren’t consequences if they wear you down. Change the WiFi password. They don’t get any of those things back until they have shown a sustained improvement in attitude and behaviour at school. At least until the end of the school year. They aren’t mature enough to handle them resoonsibly so they Donny get them. If they absolutely need a phone get one of the cheap brick phone with strong parental controls on. if they misuse those they’ll have to go too I’m afraid.

I’d suggest seeing if the school will consider a managed move to different schools. They absolutely need to be separated and need a fresh start. This will affect GCSEs but it doesn’t sound like they’ll be much better staying where they are for GCSEs.

Agree with seeing if social services would help. I think a parenting class would help at least. This is going to take a while to turn round tbh they’ve seemingly been allowed to get away with being disrespectful and a PITA for a while.

I do check what I can on their phones but obviously theyre 15 and they find ways around things. I dont know what they are looking at all the time

We have you not taken them completely ? If they are asking for nudes frankly I'd be taking the phones away completely to protect them TBH.

If they are talking about exclusions - is a pupil referal unit place being suggested?

I think you can only be very frank with the school - you have no control over them - you've asked for SS and early years help - been told no - you are not coping with them nothing you say has had any effect - what if any help way forward are they suggesting because you are stuck.

If he has been circulating pictures of naked children, then this needs reporting to the police. That’s shocking.
Why don’t you get them basic phones that can just call and text?

I would suggest emailing whoever you are meeting at the school tomorrow and saying that as part of your meeting you’d like to open an Early Help Assessment in order for the school to co-ordinate access to the support available from the Local Authority and asking that the members of staff who would be responsible for this attend the meeting.

There is quite a bit of paperwork to complete, and schools often have specific members of staff who are responsible for this, and registering the form, they may not to be able to meet you at short notice tomorrow, but if you don’t ask, they definitely won’t be there.

If during your meeting tomorrow they can’t open an early help because the right member of staff isn’t available, or they haven’t allocated enough time to do this, then ask for a meeting as soon as possible - and after then meeting email putting your request in writing.

Hopefully the tone of my responses to you make it clear I am trying to help, but I’m afraid that you are going to have to up your parenting game non the less. Many of your responses are coming across as “I’ve tried that, but…” which just isn’t good enough. You have to keep doing it, and you have to be consistent. If you are offered parenting support by the local authority, or support for the boys from targeted youth, they will echo this too, and, if you don’t do it, they will simply stop offering their help. Ultimately, if you’ve been given the advice and the tools to help, and don’t do it (and the advice and tools you are given will echo exactly what posters have been saying about boundaries and expectations) then, there is no-one and nothing to blame but the parenting for anything that happens outside of the school day - whether that is shoplifting, involvement with anti-social behaviour, poor use of social media etc. Also, even if it does have during the school day, your actions as a response to that will either support the school or undermine them. You need to really realise this, and take it on board, and as hard as it is do what you are advised, you have to do it. This situation is getting worse, so, what you are doing is not working you will have to do it someone else’s way.

I'm so sorry OP that you're not getting enough help with this situation. It must be so difficult xx

Early Help have probably said they can’t help you because the form requesting services is opened (and lead) by a professional service - normally the school. When they say they can’t help it’s because Early Help do not provide services directly, but co-ordinate services referred to through the early help process BUT they should have explained this to you and told you how to ask for the school to open the assessment.

Early Help is exactly what you need - insist the school to do this during your meeting. Please see screen shots and visit this website.

https://www.yournottsdirectory.org.uk/directory/services/the-early-help-unit

Unless your knock back from Early Help was very recent maybe try them again as the situation is getting worse. I'm sorry no organisation seems willing to help you, early intervention can save so many tears later on.

Give the staff a rest and send him somewhere else.So many pupils like this atm.

Do you check what they're looking at online? The fact that they have no friends and yet still want their phones so desperately makes me wonder what they've got into online. Their disrespect of you makes me think Tate brothers and the like. And their disregard of authority suggests they're picking that up from somewhere.

OP, how are you getting on with the school? Do you have an appointment booked to see them face to face to discuss the current situation and what they can offer in terms of time table/class adjustment or pastoral support? Don’t rely on phone calls from them at the end of the day, be proactive, insist on a meeting. Ask them to open an Early Help Assessment and use the regular, minuted, meetings as a vehicle to access support from the wider local offer such as Targetted Youth, Mentors and Police.

Have you made contact with other local schools, do any seem amenable? Have you booked meetings? Again, don’t rely on just phone calls with a member of the admin team - they don’t have the power to do anything other than say they are full or not. Ask for meetings with the head/principal/whoever deals with admissions.

Have you spoken to the Local Authority, police or other local charities that offer signposting to agencies/charities that can offer targeted family/teen support? There were some good ideas earlier in the thread, but there is also something called Targeted Youth Support (or similar names) in every local area. Having an open Early Help Assessment will also enable/facilitate access.

If you can share your county/borough/local authority, someone on here might be able to provide specific places to contact.

I feel so sorry for the other students and teachers who have to deal with your feral children in class. The other students are not able to learn because the teachers time is having to be spent dealing with your boys. You need to get tougher, you should have put boundaries in place years ago instead of being a pushover. What other school would want your son?