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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu feeling uneasy about men taking little girls to the toilet in the womens toilet?

514 replies

Fasdmama · Yesterday 10:57

I've seen this a few times and I dont know what is the right thing to do.
So the other week we were at the cinema. I took my daughter to the toilet and as I was waiting for her a man came out of a cubicle with a little girl and went to wash her hands.
It got me thinking.
I feel uncomfortable a man in the womens toilet. I understand how you'd potentially feel uncomfortable taking a daughter into the mens toilets.
And the only other option in this situation was the disabled toilet but morally thats wrong.

I dont know what I feel is right in this situation so wanted to know other people's opinions.
So yabu: its right for a man to take girl into female toilets
Yanbu: he should take her somewhere else...but where?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
EmBear91 · Yesterday 18:32

The hysteria about toilets just baffles me. No one complains about male cleaners (which are generally very common - I’m forever seeing signs saying ‘this toilet is cleaned by male and female staff’). Where I live in central London, so many restaurants/cafes/office blocks have cubicles toilets that are used by both sexes. My local gym has fully mixed changing room (obviously with cubicles for showers, changing etc). I wouldn’t bat an eyelid with a man helping his little girl in the women’s toilets. What’s the alternative? Going into the men’s & potentially seeing random male genitals at the urinals?

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 18:33

EmBear91 · Yesterday 18:32

The hysteria about toilets just baffles me. No one complains about male cleaners (which are generally very common - I’m forever seeing signs saying ‘this toilet is cleaned by male and female staff’). Where I live in central London, so many restaurants/cafes/office blocks have cubicles toilets that are used by both sexes. My local gym has fully mixed changing room (obviously with cubicles for showers, changing etc). I wouldn’t bat an eyelid with a man helping his little girl in the women’s toilets. What’s the alternative? Going into the men’s & potentially seeing random male genitals at the urinals?

But they don’t see the genitals they go straight to the cubicle . If anything it’s absolute hysteria that a girl would be traumatised by seeing a man pee at a urinal. Little boys shoudnt be subjected to it either if that’s the case. If this was commonplace you would often see men in the toilet with little children. And I’ve never ever seen that in my whole life

Balloonhearts · Yesterday 18:40

EmBear91 · Yesterday 18:32

The hysteria about toilets just baffles me. No one complains about male cleaners (which are generally very common - I’m forever seeing signs saying ‘this toilet is cleaned by male and female staff’). Where I live in central London, so many restaurants/cafes/office blocks have cubicles toilets that are used by both sexes. My local gym has fully mixed changing room (obviously with cubicles for showers, changing etc). I wouldn’t bat an eyelid with a man helping his little girl in the women’s toilets. What’s the alternative? Going into the men’s & potentially seeing random male genitals at the urinals?

Cleaners are different. They are necessary, put a sign up and leave if a woman enters, to wait outside.

Fathers are not necessary in there, they have their own toilets to use and if those spaces are disgusting or unsafe, that's on men to sort out. Not encroach on women's spaces.

Finally, and I'll put it in capitals because apparently you didn't read it the first 20 times it was said, YOU DO NOT GET TO CONSENT ON BEHALF OF OTHER WOMEN. if you don't mind, great. Plenty of other women clearly do mind and one person saying no is enough. He has no right to be there.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 18:52

Genuine question for any of the men on here: do you feel uncomfortable if you're using a urinal and a little girl walks in with her father?

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 18:54

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 16:52

I haven't a problem with all toilets being mixed sex toilets if they were individually contained with a basin and opened into a public space. Which is what I understand family toilets to be. So I still don't understand the increased risk of family toilets?

Have a look at my previous posts. I make it a general rule not to mention individual incidents but you can see how and why I think this.

How would all unisex toilets work practically? Scrap all urinals and create massive public corridors all lined with individual toilet rooms? The queues and cost would be enormous. In British Standards, calculations show you need 25% more toilets if you use unisex toilets because people are waiting longer for the occupant to finish washing and drying their hands. How does ventilation work? What about cleaning? How can they be supervised? If someone is misusing them, how would you know? How does that work for emergency building evacuations or being worried about a child/colleague who has gone missing? At what point do you bang on the door? Do you have cctv on every toilet with people watching if you go in and out?

Your preferred design is creating private mixed sex rooms in public spaces. Why do you think they are required to open in public spaces? Do you think that will work in not such public spaces or when those public spaces are quieter?

Toilets are such vulnerable spaces to misuse they have their own section in the Sexual Offences Act. How do you think making them all mixed sex and private it going to impact on safety?

There’s also health. Because the toilet plume flush covers up to 1.5m unless something stops it, you are washing and drying your hands using objects covered in everyone else’s flushes. In fact, unless the warm air hand dryer filter is thoroughly cleaned, studies have shown you can end up with more microbes on your hands than you started with. Unisex toilets are worst for pathogens.

I spotted a young woman had stopped breathing (choked on vomit in a nightclub cubicle) straight away, as soon as I walked into the ladies. We got her out and breathing again. In contrast, people have been left for hours and even days in this country in toilets in private designs you are preferring. People have died in toilets in very public workplaces and venues but no one knew until it was too late. I have many recent examples of this.

I research actual incidents, police reports, coroner reports, foi’s for data and statistics. I wanted to know why toilets designs were becoming more enclosed and what happens when they do. I now have a books-worth of information from across the world, but focusing on the U.K.

There are a variety of things that people have tried to do to make your preferred completely private design safer:
Put heat sensors in the room to monitor how many people are in there, put alarms in that activate to send text messages to ‘help me’ or ‘stop it’ prompts, weight sensors in the floor so the door won’t close if it thinks there are too many people in the room, various things such as coloured lights to try and stop people injecting drugs and overdosing in their preferred private design, cctv fixed so it’s looking at the door, making the toilets very small so two people can’t fit in, making the doors open automatically after a set time, create a one way mirror the occupant can see people outside their toilet cubicle/room (this one I don’t think was ever used - this very influential toilet designer wanted to see others when he was seated), have glass doors and walls that frost up when the door is locked, only open toilets up when an attendant can watch everyone going in….

All of the above is retrospective and not as effective as a single sex toilet in a single sex environment that has a 15cm floor to door gap. Single sex design safeguards against misuse happening in the first place.

These things are also true: Most men are good men who wouldn’t want to cause distress to women or children in toilets. Despite various alarmist people discussing some may being killed, it is extremely rare to be killed in a toilet.

It is not rare to collapse in a toilet. Building regs state non domestic toilet doors should be able to open outwards from the outside or taken off their hinges precisely because people collapse against the door and you can’t open them. Once collapsed the time taken for rescue is vital.

I am aware my posts can get long, if you want links to the above info, I can post more.

I think you need to consider the unique environment of toilets and why the default has been and is single sex. We need toilets for safe and hygienic sanitation and single sex design is best in non domestic situations. That, of course, gives exemptions for a man bringing a girl into the men’s toilets, and a woman bringing a boy into the women’s toilets, because it is for the safety of the child.

The fact is, unless it’s a small venue, if you want all unisex toilets, it’s not permitted anyway. Single sex provision has to be prioritised.

OonaStubbs · Yesterday 18:56

When an adult has to take a child of the opposite gender into a public toilet, they should go into the correct toilet for the adult, not the child.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 18:59

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 18:54

Have a look at my previous posts. I make it a general rule not to mention individual incidents but you can see how and why I think this.

How would all unisex toilets work practically? Scrap all urinals and create massive public corridors all lined with individual toilet rooms? The queues and cost would be enormous. In British Standards, calculations show you need 25% more toilets if you use unisex toilets because people are waiting longer for the occupant to finish washing and drying their hands. How does ventilation work? What about cleaning? How can they be supervised? If someone is misusing them, how would you know? How does that work for emergency building evacuations or being worried about a child/colleague who has gone missing? At what point do you bang on the door? Do you have cctv on every toilet with people watching if you go in and out?

Your preferred design is creating private mixed sex rooms in public spaces. Why do you think they are required to open in public spaces? Do you think that will work in not such public spaces or when those public spaces are quieter?

Toilets are such vulnerable spaces to misuse they have their own section in the Sexual Offences Act. How do you think making them all mixed sex and private it going to impact on safety?

There’s also health. Because the toilet plume flush covers up to 1.5m unless something stops it, you are washing and drying your hands using objects covered in everyone else’s flushes. In fact, unless the warm air hand dryer filter is thoroughly cleaned, studies have shown you can end up with more microbes on your hands than you started with. Unisex toilets are worst for pathogens.

I spotted a young woman had stopped breathing (choked on vomit in a nightclub cubicle) straight away, as soon as I walked into the ladies. We got her out and breathing again. In contrast, people have been left for hours and even days in this country in toilets in private designs you are preferring. People have died in toilets in very public workplaces and venues but no one knew until it was too late. I have many recent examples of this.

I research actual incidents, police reports, coroner reports, foi’s for data and statistics. I wanted to know why toilets designs were becoming more enclosed and what happens when they do. I now have a books-worth of information from across the world, but focusing on the U.K.

There are a variety of things that people have tried to do to make your preferred completely private design safer:
Put heat sensors in the room to monitor how many people are in there, put alarms in that activate to send text messages to ‘help me’ or ‘stop it’ prompts, weight sensors in the floor so the door won’t close if it thinks there are too many people in the room, various things such as coloured lights to try and stop people injecting drugs and overdosing in their preferred private design, cctv fixed so it’s looking at the door, making the toilets very small so two people can’t fit in, making the doors open automatically after a set time, create a one way mirror the occupant can see people outside their toilet cubicle/room (this one I don’t think was ever used - this very influential toilet designer wanted to see others when he was seated), have glass doors and walls that frost up when the door is locked, only open toilets up when an attendant can watch everyone going in….

All of the above is retrospective and not as effective as a single sex toilet in a single sex environment that has a 15cm floor to door gap. Single sex design safeguards against misuse happening in the first place.

These things are also true: Most men are good men who wouldn’t want to cause distress to women or children in toilets. Despite various alarmist people discussing some may being killed, it is extremely rare to be killed in a toilet.

It is not rare to collapse in a toilet. Building regs state non domestic toilet doors should be able to open outwards from the outside or taken off their hinges precisely because people collapse against the door and you can’t open them. Once collapsed the time taken for rescue is vital.

I am aware my posts can get long, if you want links to the above info, I can post more.

I think you need to consider the unique environment of toilets and why the default has been and is single sex. We need toilets for safe and hygienic sanitation and single sex design is best in non domestic situations. That, of course, gives exemptions for a man bringing a girl into the men’s toilets, and a woman bringing a boy into the women’s toilets, because it is for the safety of the child.

The fact is, unless it’s a small venue, if you want all unisex toilets, it’s not permitted anyway. Single sex provision has to be prioritised.

I don't think I'm following all this - why would a mixed gender design mean that ventilation wouldn't work the same, or cleaning, or supervision? There isn't any supervision in most public bathrooms anyway?

BananaPeels · Yesterday 18:59

No man should ever go into the women’s toilet unless and emergency. Girls can be taken in the men’s. It is for the dad to manage the situation. My dad took me into the men’s when I was younger and I don’t recall any dangerous childhood trauma

a few years ago I was taking my DD to a swimming lesson and there was an open plan changing room. There was a dad who walked in and started dealing with his DD and honestly I was so angry. There were women and girls getting changed in there but he honestly thought that was the best solution to the problem of where to change his daughter.

BananaPeels · Yesterday 19:01

EmBear91 · Yesterday 18:32

The hysteria about toilets just baffles me. No one complains about male cleaners (which are generally very common - I’m forever seeing signs saying ‘this toilet is cleaned by male and female staff’). Where I live in central London, so many restaurants/cafes/office blocks have cubicles toilets that are used by both sexes. My local gym has fully mixed changing room (obviously with cubicles for showers, changing etc). I wouldn’t bat an eyelid with a man helping his little girl in the women’s toilets. What’s the alternative? Going into the men’s & potentially seeing random male genitals at the urinals?

The women at my office staged a mass complaint at our office at the state the men were leaving the toilets in. We absolutely hated it. Desperate for them to put men’s and women’s back in.

Greyhound98 · Yesterday 19:02

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 12:36

And what if the female child isn't comfortable with that? Why do adult female's comfort and preferences trump those of a child's ? I'm really astounding by the double standards on this thread.

Equally, what if MY female child isn’t comfortable with some other female child’s dad in the ladies loo?
Who trumps who then?
In an ideal world, there would be ‘family’ loos, but most places don’t have these. There is no solution that everyone will be happy with.

BananaPeels · Yesterday 19:08

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 12:11

And what about a man taking his daughter to swimming lessons in a facility where there are no family cubicles. What do you suggest they do then?

They take them to the men’s and they shield them while they get changed or they don’t go swimming at that particular venue. No one has a human right to have swimming lessons at any venue they choose.

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:12

BananaPeels · Yesterday 19:08

They take them to the men’s and they shield them while they get changed or they don’t go swimming at that particular venue. No one has a human right to have swimming lessons at any venue they choose.

That’s exactly my point I think you may have misunderstood me . I went to the men’s with my dad as a child and it did me absolutely no harm whatsoever. I bring my little boy to the women’s. I don’t see the big deal when an adult is supervising.

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 19:15

Greyhound98 · Yesterday 19:02

Equally, what if MY female child isn’t comfortable with some other female child’s dad in the ladies loo?
Who trumps who then?
In an ideal world, there would be ‘family’ loos, but most places don’t have these. There is no solution that everyone will be happy with.

I entirely agree, there isn't a work around that works for all. So the best we can do is be respectful and accept someone else's actions won't always align with what we feel is right or how we would like things to be done.

Anarchy99 · Yesterday 19:16

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 18:11

The person who needs to use the toilet is the girl, not the man. So primarily it's her right we're talking about. She has just as much right to use the women's toilet as any other female. She just happens to need assistance from an adult who happens to be a male. The male is perfectly within his legal right to assist the girl in a woman's toilet. If anyone needs to campaign it's the people that feel comfortable with this.

Women campaigned for their own spaces. If a bloke wants to avoid taking daughter into the gents, he needs to campaign for separate facilities.

But men won’t because they are so used to having precedence in the world that it doesn’t occur to them. Instead they trample over the hard won rights of women.

Anarchy99 · Yesterday 19:19

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 19:15

I entirely agree, there isn't a work around that works for all. So the best we can do is be respectful and accept someone else's actions won't always align with what we feel is right or how we would like things to be done.

So those with trauma or who have religious reasons do what? Stand outside until the man has finished?

It’s always the women that have to be respectful and accepting.

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:21

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 19:15

I entirely agree, there isn't a work around that works for all. So the best we can do is be respectful and accept someone else's actions won't always align with what we feel is right or how we would like things to be done.

This is ridiculous children of that age do not care . It’s the adults who care not preschool kids . They don’t give a shit about where they go for a pee as long as an adult is with them . What are you shielding them from exactly ? What the hell do you think goes on in men’s toilets

Badgerstmary · Yesterday 19:34

I definitely think a parent should only go into the toilet of the sex that they are & fortunately have never encountered a man in the ladies. I also think it would be horrifying for a young girl of 9 upwards on her period needing to change sanitary pads/tampons knowing that there was a man in the next cubicle & that he could potentially look over.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:38

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:21

This is ridiculous children of that age do not care . It’s the adults who care not preschool kids . They don’t give a shit about where they go for a pee as long as an adult is with them . What are you shielding them from exactly ? What the hell do you think goes on in men’s toilets

I don't think that's necessarily true for every child, and it's not just preschool kids who need help in the bathroom either. My middle DC is now 6 but I'm certain she would have had a meltdown if her dad had tried to take her in a men's bathroom, probably from about 3.5 - 4. Thankfully (every cloud!) it never came up as I was almost always with her due to her needs.

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 19:39

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 18:59

I don't think I'm following all this - why would a mixed gender design mean that ventilation wouldn't work the same, or cleaning, or supervision? There isn't any supervision in most public bathrooms anyway?

I think I have only ever been in one public toilet block that has had an attendant. Everywhere else, the strangers you are in the room with act as attendants to supervise if things went wrong.

Can you see my diagram I have posted on here previously? Ventilation is a massive problem in toilets. In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom, which typically has a glazed window open to provide natural ventilation. Remember COVID, and how opening doors and windows was encouraged? With mixed sex designs, they are enclosed rooms which often rely mechanical ventilation. They need to lead off public spaces which may not be next to an outside wall. It is accepted mechanical ventilation is less adequate than natural ventilation.

In terms on cleaning, if you have door gaps and partitions gaps you can get a mop and bleach and slosh down walls and doors that can have secretions and excretions on them. The cubicle walls and floor can all be thoroughly cleaned, even hosed! With a mixed sex design the doors and partitions go down to the floor and there’s build up. Any liquid on the bottom of the door may make the door swell. There are physical limitations as to how you can clean.

A lot of my original research was looking at how secondary school designs were changing. This is a good example of the typical problems that happen:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Also this is a quote from a pupil using a unisex toilet room: ‘The gender-neutral bathrooms are both horrible and amazing. I am so glad we have them, but they are disgusting, mostly because of the way students treat them. The issue mainly comes from how small and how few they are, and it’s not uncommon that the four small bathrooms [one on each floor] are filled with sex, drugs or vaping. We need to address these problems, or the gender-neutral bathrooms will continue to be the most disgusting in the school….I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. Teachers tried to increase cctv, restrict access to certain times, use teachers to monitor children going in and out etc. The child’s solution was to have more ‘gender-neutral’ toilets so the dirt and sex could be spread out more and hopefully more chance of finding a nice one.

'Drug dealing, drinking and dirt' The problems with school toilets in Wales

Pupils are taking drugs and drinking in "dangerous unhygienic" completely enclosed toilet cubicles, says a report by campaign group Merched Cymru

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:42

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 19:39

I think I have only ever been in one public toilet block that has had an attendant. Everywhere else, the strangers you are in the room with act as attendants to supervise if things went wrong.

Can you see my diagram I have posted on here previously? Ventilation is a massive problem in toilets. In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom, which typically has a glazed window open to provide natural ventilation. Remember COVID, and how opening doors and windows was encouraged? With mixed sex designs, they are enclosed rooms which often rely mechanical ventilation. They need to lead off public spaces which may not be next to an outside wall. It is accepted mechanical ventilation is less adequate than natural ventilation.

In terms on cleaning, if you have door gaps and partitions gaps you can get a mop and bleach and slosh down walls and doors that can have secretions and excretions on them. The cubicle walls and floor can all be thoroughly cleaned, even hosed! With a mixed sex design the doors and partitions go down to the floor and there’s build up. Any liquid on the bottom of the door may make the door swell. There are physical limitations as to how you can clean.

A lot of my original research was looking at how secondary school designs were changing. This is a good example of the typical problems that happen:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Also this is a quote from a pupil using a unisex toilet room: ‘The gender-neutral bathrooms are both horrible and amazing. I am so glad we have them, but they are disgusting, mostly because of the way students treat them. The issue mainly comes from how small and how few they are, and it’s not uncommon that the four small bathrooms [one on each floor] are filled with sex, drugs or vaping. We need to address these problems, or the gender-neutral bathrooms will continue to be the most disgusting in the school….I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. Teachers tried to increase cctv, restrict access to certain times, use teachers to monitor children going in and out etc. The child’s solution was to have more ‘gender-neutral’ toilets so the dirt and sex could be spread out more and hopefully more chance of finding a nice one.

Thanks for replying! Why can't you have a mixed sex bathroom with door gaps (albeit too small for a person to get through), and a shared hand washing/sink area (so there's none of the contamination from the flush)?

PhaedraTwo · Yesterday 19:50

In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom,

Not always the case. None of the single sex lavatories in my new office building have gaps above or below. The doors on the cubicles are floor to ceiling opening out to the single sex hand washing area. Many places are like this.

TigerDroveAgain · Yesterday 19:52

Why not offer to watch her? I’ve done that before

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:06

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:42

Thanks for replying! Why can't you have a mixed sex bathroom with door gaps (albeit too small for a person to get through), and a shared hand washing/sink area (so there's none of the contamination from the flush)?

  1. it‘s not allowed in building regulations.
  2. where is has been tried anyway (making a single sex design mixed sex by replacing a pictogram on the outer washroom door) women and girls are subject to voyeurism and harassment.

No one is comfortable having door gaps in a mixed sex environment.

You will see in ‘gender-neutral’ ‘inclusive’ designs the cubicles are private within a mixed sex washroom. This is also against regulations, particularly clear in England under ADT (toilets) and ADM (accessibility).

Schools have been the ‘canaries in the coal mine’ of mixed sex design as they were exempt from some legislation. Loads of wacky designs have been trialled, with problems particularly affecting girls and the medically vulnerable.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:12

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:06

  1. it‘s not allowed in building regulations.
  2. where is has been tried anyway (making a single sex design mixed sex by replacing a pictogram on the outer washroom door) women and girls are subject to voyeurism and harassment.

No one is comfortable having door gaps in a mixed sex environment.

You will see in ‘gender-neutral’ ‘inclusive’ designs the cubicles are private within a mixed sex washroom. This is also against regulations, particularly clear in England under ADT (toilets) and ADM (accessibility).

Schools have been the ‘canaries in the coal mine’ of mixed sex design as they were exempt from some legislation. Loads of wacky designs have been trialled, with problems particularly affecting girls and the medically vulnerable.

I didn't know that, so thank you. I think (in fact, I'm about 90% sure) I've been in places that are flouting this rule. I suppose the plans need to move with the times - if we can design shuttles that go to the moon I'm sure our best engineers can come up with fully enclosed toilets that are properly ventilated!

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:15

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:38

I don't think that's necessarily true for every child, and it's not just preschool kids who need help in the bathroom either. My middle DC is now 6 but I'm certain she would have had a meltdown if her dad had tried to take her in a men's bathroom, probably from about 3.5 - 4. Thankfully (every cloud!) it never came up as I was almost always with her due to her needs.

Extra needs like this should use the disabled toilet .