to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

Oh I see now. So there IS some sort of disproportional issue with Islamic acts of violence and terrorism. Particularly given the small numbers who live here.

I guess that's your answer OP?

This is a thread discussing Islam. We aren’t discussing anything else here.

I am also not holding you personally responsible. I am saying don’t be so quick to call people racists for calling out the truth.

I agree with you 100%. I'm not a Muslim but actually find the vitriol against Muslims quite frightening.
It seems hatred is being stirred up by the right wing press and on social media. I won't repeat some of the things I've read on social media but they're absolutely sickening.

What on earth are you talking about? Nobody is talking about blasphemy laws or whether or not religion is 'right'. OP is talking about mosques being burned and Muslims being attacked in the street because they are being scapegoated for crimes they have nothing to do with. Can you imagine how scary that would feel? Way to make it about you though.

Not my experience at all. The Muslim mums always came on nights out to restaurants. Yes they didn't attend the nights at pubs where alcohol was the focus and I can't say I blame them.
The Muslim children we know have always come to parties and play dates.

That's because of the way terrorism is defined. They're only just talking about adding far right groups under the terrorist definition - so they and other groups don't appear in the stats.

This is NOT a thread discussing Islam. It's a thread discussing the hatred OP and her community receive and how scared it makes her feel. The fact you've taken it as a chance to criticise her community says everything about you.

You know what? I wouldn't ask a Muslim to come out for "a drink". We have many Muslims in our community (school parents and work colleagues). Without fail they come to meals out and we all have a great time. I'd never think of asking a Muslim out to a pub or bar but definitely out for lunch or dinner.

Yeah, same here.

If Muslims in certain communities are choosing not to socialise more widely, there might be other reasons for that.

One of my children is best friends with a child who is Muslim. I am supportive of their friendship because they get along so well, not because he is Muslim. DS wants his best friend to come with him to celebrate his birthday soon. They have just gotten on so well since the start of primary school. It's been so nice to see their friendship blossoming. Long may it last 💕

this thread is not discussing Islam
it is discussing attacks against Muslims and whether as a community they need more protection in law by recognising the specific form of racism Muslims experience

if it was discussing Islam, I.e. the religion and hence theology, you would be beyond unqualified to participate as you are totally misinformed and prejudiced

I have no problem with you taking issue with what some individual Muslims do, I take more issue with people going around saying they are committing vile acts in the name of MY religion when they are in reality going against all of its values. they are enemies of Islam and Muslims.
I have a problem with you, or anyone else extrapolating these actions to make conclusions about the entire Muslim community and the religion. that is the very definition of racism.

if you imagine me blaming all white people for my ancestors being killed (I come from the colony, my ancestors suffered under British rule), for all the racism I have suffered including physical violence and making assumptions about English people based on my personal experience. that is what you are doing.

But do you use the word antisemitism, which is used at every opportunity by Israel to shut down talk of the evil things Israel is doing? The fact that you only care when it's a Muslims says a lot. Why not just understand that both things can be true - individuals in the UK can experience fear and hate crimes, and governments abroad can seek to weaponise this for their own twisted means.

It won't come from the government. Muslim organisations need to write the definition and lobby for it to be accepted. That's what the Jewish community did. But be warned, just because there's a definition in place, it might not necessarily be observed or taken seriously.

Oh interesting. So what are some of the big far right attacks that have happened in this country?

I know about 7/7, Manchester arena, Westminster Bridge, London Bridge, Lee Rigby... I must have missed the equivalent far right attacks. Must be the press under reporting them?

like maybe they are scared of the racism they will suffer?
like the time when a car full of edl supported drove into me a on purpose?
or every time when I go out I get told to do back to pakistan? even though I am actually from a totally different country and have never been to pakistan....
or the times I have been spat at, shouted at, shoved, my car door kicked in, patronised, refused service, the micro aggressions

the truth is now when I encounter white people, my guard is always up. I am waiting for the racism and even then, when it happens, it still knocks the wind out of me

They're only just talking about adding far right groups under the terrorist definition - so they and other groups don't appear in the stats.

I attended prevent training some yrs ago which very much included far right terrorism.

if you imagine me blaming all white people for my ancestors being killed (I come from the colony, my ancestors suffered under British rule),

I think the issue here is that white people DO often get blamed for all the problems in the world. In 2020 and beyond there was a HUGE media discourse about white supremacy, white privilege and about how all white people today still benefit from colonialism and how all white people are inherently racist. There was a Woman of Colour on a BBC talk show who said 'Kill Whitey!" and the audience applauded.

So this is my point, there has been extremist rhetoric on all sides. There's a lot of extremist rhetoric online about Israelis being like Nazis or Trump being a facist. And vulnerable people read that stuff and it translates into stochastic terrorism in real life as we have seen.

We ALL have a responsibility to dial back our rhetoric and treat one another with moderation and respect. ALL of us, on mumsnet, twitter, TV, everywhere. That's the only way we can combat extremism and we all have a responsibility to do it.

Do you live in London? Where there are pockets of Indians in west London who keep only to themselves, where the first generation never learn English? Where there are groups of Jews in NW London who don’t integrate with others?

Ask yourself why your concern of lack of integration is focussed on Muslims alone.

We already have hate speech, hate crime, equality laws and others which include religion. What law specifically are you looking for?

@Gummybear23 the IRA weren't involved in a religious war. They weren't acting for the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church. The fight for the right of Irish people to actually control their state hasn't always been, and still isn't, along religious lines. Many nationialists have been Protestants or had no religion. The point of the argument / dispute is about who governs Ireland. About whether it's an independent state or a colony/ part of the UK. Whilst in recent times, and I do mean very recent times, those views have tended to be divided along religious lines that has not been the case for much of the struggle for independence.

Because they're not demanding we make any allowances for them.

Muslims on the other hand...they want new laws just for them.

No, whole new religions will not start. Those religions will continue. What nonsense.

And for what it’s worth, Muslims also believe that the Messiah will return. And do you know who the Messiah is in Islam - Jesus himself. Mind blowing stuff isn’t it?!

What new laws?

No I haven’t ignored your question at all. I quite clearly stated that we currently have equality laws and hate laws which cover protected characteristics such as religious affiliation, which would include protecting Muslims from persecution due to their faith. I also never said that Islamophobia didn’t exist. I again clearly stated that there are extremists in all groups of society, whether than be within the EDL or Islam. I also quite clearly stated that I wouldn’t blame an entire community for the actions of a small minority of extremists on any side. So, how you got that I was showing prejudice from that says to me that you are in fact the one who’s prejudiced against anyone who doesn’t agree with your stance 100%. You asked the question and now you’re name calling anyone who’s responded with answers that you don’t like. And there may well be as you say, microcosms of hatred taking place all the time, I’d say that’s true of all of those in the extreme factions of society. I also think it’s entirely relevant to point out that the vast majority of people don’t care what your religious belief are and just want to get on with their own lives. That the UK is on the whole a tolerant country, trying to make sure minorities are protected, because it is. You are trying to put across that it’s not and I disagree. That doesn’t make me prejudiced, it just means I don’t agree with you.