Boundaries and Allies

[DancingRaven]

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

Trans people like Debbie Hayton show that there is a way to be trans and still consider other people's rights

Absolute bollocks. Hayton clearly shows in that exchange that they don’t consider other people’s rights at all. They know women object to their presence in our facilities but they go ahead anyway and don’t give a flying fuck.

The only rights Hayton considers are Hayton’s own. They don’t give a damn for anyone else’s unless they are in line with Hayton’s.

Why, incidentally, do we have to put aside the wants and needs of all women to ease whatever dysphoria men claim to experience? Why is easing their dysphoria more important than allowing women to feel and be safe, comfortable, protected etc?

Trans people like Debbie Hayton show that there is a way to be trans and still consider other people's rights

Debbie Hayton writes letters and tweets in support of women. Saying no, men should not be impinging on women's rights. Then says only I can do that, because I'm not like them. I can use the female facilities, because I disagree that there is any need for me not to and I find that funny anyway. And I can make children pretend I'm female. And I can use the ladies at work.

But not those other transwomen.

It's the very definition of hypocrisy.

*MY is really the only one I have ever had any time for, MY really seems to have spent a long time thinking through it all and tried to seriously unpick their male socialisation and privilege.&

Yes. Miranda's a good bloke.

I never liked DH having seen DH speak at a WPUK meeting and thinking [insert wrongthink not compatible with talk guifelines] The clincher was seeing DH's poor wife on Stella O'Malley's documentary

I would add Jenn Smith ("Transanity" blog and YouTube) to Miranda Yardley in the roll of honour for holding a very hard line on "sex not gender".

Jenn is getting mobbed by violent TRAs all over Canada on a "sex not gender" speaking tour.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCLnZSxIU8j8jT22tBgd-saQ/videos

I remembered seeing Jenn pass comment on a couple of our very strong, effective and articulate allies who nevertheless stumble at the "but I'm a LADY!" test.

twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=hayton%20%20from%3A%40JenBear72996337&src=typd
(screenshots)

Jenn is also keen to debunk myths and misunderstandings about "bottom surgery
twitter.com/JenBear72996337/status/1110087383750307841
(screenshot)

If you have not seen it, this video by Jenn cannot be shared enough IMHO on a par with "Rhohypnol Pronouns"!

"The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick"

Re the "friends with tras" comment. I can confirm this. Dh likes to lunch with certain tras and then defends them online.

Dh defends only dh. Dh fights only for dhs rights and dh has been getting of at having women fawn over them as some sort of 3rd rate hero. Dh is noting more than a wolf in sheep's clothing who has been Gaslighting us all for years.

Dh also changes the signatures on the letter in the times from "mother" to "parent" and refuses to explain why.

Open your eyes ladies.

OP check your PMs I'm sure dh has used their usual tactic of wanting to discuss it all in private to Gaslight you a little more.

Yes can confirm DH's private messaging habit. Nope.

DH thinks DH is nice and DH thinks women are fine with it

DH knows women aren’t fine with it as many women have brought it up with DH personally. DH doesn’t care.

And my own personal boundaries? I’d no more let DH close to them any more than I would any other member of DH’s sex, in fact I’d probably keep DH at even more of a distance because DH has already proved DH will cross them without a thought. There’s no benefit of the doubt if the doubt has already been proven.

I'm 100% with Barracker and those posters who have had doubts about this category of ally.

DH rocked up on a message board I was on to warn local women about self-ID, seemingly out of nowhere. It may have been a google alert, or a tip-off from another poster. DH explained, with fastidious politeness, that 'women' like DH had been using female-only facilities for years. DH just came in and took over, placing DH in the middle of the issue. We had been discussing the issue from a female perspective.

Even though nothing he said was unreasonable - DH was reporting DH's experience - all of my spider senses started tingling with a vengeance. I trust that response.

I then saw DH on Stella O'Malley's documentary, and felt incredibly sorry for DH's wife (her facial expression and distress when asked how her partner's transition had effected her was unforgettable), then later for the pupils DH gaslights every day.

I regard DH with acute scepticism, in terms of DH's value as a feminist ally. Clear boundaries are needed because their requirements and ours do not necessarily align. In fact, the more we rely on individuals such as DH to grant an appearance of moral legitimacy to GC feminism's aims, in the eyes of sexist establishment, the more we dilute our own aims - female-only space being paramount.

No. Just no.

I can 100% confirm pinchpoint post about dh coming in and taking over and talking over women already in said groups.

It's dh's mo and does it in every single group they are in

In the screen shot why is the name in the top left removed if it was from Debbie Hayton? i.e. why remove only one instance of the name. I don't have WhatsApp so I'm not sure what the message format is.

The bit in the top left would be a phone number, ItsAll.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine it probably has their number visible

Thank you both 🙂

No GC woman here is saying trans people's feelings don't matter. What they're saying is the solution cannot be to hand them women's spaces and women's rights. The obvious way that meets all needs is third spaces. Anything else involves removing rights from women to give to male born people and calling it a 'compromise' that they're still allowed a few rights. For now. A bit. If they're quiet about it.

I respect DH on a number of issues, but DH is clear: they intend to use women's spaces, whether or not women consent or mind, or whether or not this excludes some women from having any facilities at all. It's hard not to see both the male entitlement and superiority there, the total lack of real respect or listening to women, and their interest is in meeting their own needs. What happens to women as a result is meh. Not their problem.

I am emphatically not ok with that. That was the point I realised that entry to women's spaces must be limited to biological women only. As Datun has put it so well: anything else is merely negotiating the position of men's boot on women's neck.

I don't get why women are thought of as rehabilitation centres for men. Of course trans feelings matter but it is not women's problem to placate them by handing over our rights.

To take a different look, should all men with mental health issues be allowed into female only spaces because they feel vulnerable? Having a bad day, come on mate join the ladies?

We have to remember that our supposed allies were very happy to take advantage of the recommendations of the Women's and Equality Select Committee, and for Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence and other pressure groups who promoted the lie that TWAW.

They wouldn't be in women's spaces now if the Trans pressure groups had lost the argument and women's representatives had been listened to, in Parliament.

It was only after radical feminism broke through, in places like Mumsnet, that trans "allies" changed their tune. Co-incidence? Nah!

In real life, I've found a real sense of resistance against the Trans people who have networked into organisations or who volunteer at events with 'women' in the title. A few months ago an enthusiastic AGP bounced into the room, asking: "What do you want me to do. How can I help?"
There was a pause as each of us imagined the words: Feck the feck off.
Then one woman said with a straightface: "Could you put on a high vizzi jacket and look after the top car-park?"

They weren't dressed for car-park security duties!

Sorry, but the toilet issue is a big issue, it's not a source of amusement for people.

I'm really angry about this, Hayton is a fox that has been let into the hen house and the hens have even given them a seat at the table.

Not all hens, Raven though unfortunately foxes only listen to those saying what they want to hear.

I think "old school" transexuals sometimes appear as allies as they don't want self ID to come in as that will really fuck things up for them.

Doesn't mean they don't want to keep things as they are for themselves.

DH explained, with fastidious politeness, that 'women' like DH had been using female-only facilities for years.

How would Hayton know this?

Its never been ok for male transpeople.to use female facilities. Im about the same age as Hayton and I've never known a time when it has been acceptable for male transpeople to use open plan changing rooms in shops or swimming pools.

I think they just hear other transpeople talk about it on chat rooms and think it's true.

The ones with the GRCs say they should be the exception.
The ones with surgery say they should be the exception.
The ones with truefeelings say they should be the exception.
The ones who write nice letters with lovely signatories say they should be the exception.

And eventually you realise you're watching adult men arguing about which of them are the best, truest women, the most entitled to be called female. Whilst actual females, women and girls watch in astonishment, realising they're talking about US AND WHICH OF THEM CAN BE FORCED UPON US. And my question is not, hmm, who are our allies, which ones shall we pretend for, what do we concede, how shall we look reasonable, where are the compromises, let's have a lovely discussion about this.
My question isn't, what sort of tolerance level can robust, adult women achieve that can allow them to withstand some men forcing themselves upon us.
No, my question is this.

What monstrous unfairness is being imposed upon a generation of little girls, that we are ordering them to submit to grown men breaching every boundary and protection they have? Because these men aren't JUST telling the middle aged women on twitter to suck it up, buttercup.

They're telling my wisp of a daughter, and yours, that she cannot keep them, or any man, away from her, in any circumstances, ever.
That she cannot say no. That they are the ultimate power, and she is utterly powerless.

We have to turn this whole horror around. We cannot stop until I can look my sweet girl in the face and say, it's not going to happen to you, we've stopped it.

I've just seen this diatribe on twitter from a GRC holder:

I will go spare if I have to hear one more thing about chromosomes, sperms and chuffing gametes. These things don't need to be discussed!! Yes...
I can't have babies.
I can't have periods.
I am male in some (irrelevant) ways.
I am not intruding into female space
.... It's my space too because I am female. This has been won already. The law of this land (the UK) is that my sex is what I say it is (having gone through the hurdles that involves). That is a fact. That law is not going to change. We've won. End of.

What monstrous unfairness is being imposed upon a generation of little girls, that we are ordering them to submit to grown men breaching every boundary and protection they have? Because these men aren't JUST telling the middle aged women on twitter to suck it up, buttercup.

They're telling my wisp of a daughter, and yours, that she cannot keep them, or any man, away from her, in any circumstances, ever.
That she cannot say no. That they are the ultimate power, and she is utterly powerless.

Very much this^.

Great post Barracker