Boundaries and Allies

[DancingRaven]

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

I feel compelled to defend Debbie here, for a few reasons, some about Debbie and some about the wider movement.

I don’t know a lot about Debbie though have met them a couple of times at GC talks, seems genuine enough to me and definitely seems engaged with the wider arguments in an intelligent and honest way.

As far as the tweet about loos goes its important to note that a) Debbie is not and does not claim to be a women, and therefore does not have the visceral anger a women would have over the erosion of her and her sisters rights. This is just a fact, its an intellectual and moral issue for men rather than life or death, full humanity, like it is for woman. That does not make them a bad person. b) quite a few people are not that bothered, on the surface of things, about actual loos. Its the destruction of women’s rights and dignity as a distinct class within humanity, our achievements (including the achievement of not committing violent crime), safe spaces from male violence and just the hatefully judgmental male gaze, scientific truth, freedom of speech, political freedom, safeguarding, and all the other shit that goes with the TRA agenda.
I also believe a man who genuinely engages with feminism, not some woke wanker obviously, is something to celebrate.

Though I fucking loath that women center men anywhere and I especially loath the latest craze to center men in feminism ffs. But it would be naive to ignore the fact that men and many women, society as a whole, hear men in way they just don’t hear women, and if we can find men who will genuinely shout for us then it would be idiotic not to use that to change things.

As far as Debbie goes, it must be hard as a TIM to not only resist the brave and stunning narrative but to take flack for sticking up for women.
I dont know, maybe Debbie will come out and declare they were fooling us all along but for now, as far as we know, Debbie very much seems to be, at some personal cost, someone trying to stay on the right side of reality and morality.

I would also like to add that as far as I know Debbie does not and never has self ID in to womens spaces, they have always been emphatic on the point that they are only ever invited in to womens spaces, otherwise its strictly no go.

Toilets really aren't trivial, just 'politics'or something to be laughed about.

Imagine a 13yr old girl who is being sexually abused. She goes to the the school toilet desperately hoping to see that her period has arrived on time. Now imagine that the toilets in her school are mixed-sex, or 'single-sex' but allow males who identify as a girls to use them. This girl is learning that she cannot even have a guaranteed moment that is completely away from males, despite her utter vulnerability in that moment.

Now imagine that the girl is a little older, maybe 15. She is no longer being abused by the man who groomed and abused her for much of her life. However she has started to be subjected to sexual harassment from other males. Each time it happens she asks herself what she is doing wrong. She completely recognises that males pose a significant risk to her, and whilst she knows that it is probably not all men, she cannot figure out a reliable way to tell which men are dangerous. She finds it increasingly difficult to be in certain situations with men. Sometimes she has to 'force' herself to do it but that always comes at a cost. She is plagued by nightmares both of her past and what might happen in the future. She also experiences flashbacks which may be triggered when she is feeling vulnerable around men and are even triggered by the smell of a man. She wants to use the toilets at her school without the additional harm to her wellbeing, that fearing or knowing a male is next to her will bring. She also feels that she cannot speak out and explain about her past, her vulnerability and her need for single-sex spaces such as toilets.

Now imagine that she wants so much to succeed and have a 'normal' life. She wants to be able to use single-sex spaces, including toilets and changing rooms to navigate her way through her life and through society, except they have gone. They have gone from her university, where she is told that it is transphobic to be concerned by a male in the women's toilets. They have gone from the shops she needs to visit, which either mislead about having female single-sex changing rooms and toilets, or have now installed mixed-sex facilities. In fact, they have gone from the gyms, cinemas, workplaces and even the hospitals. How does she navigate her way though society now?

Toilets are very important. To her, to other vulnerable girls and to many women for many different reasons. Toilets may not be the area that we should focus on primarily, but breaking the boundary of female single-sex toilets is definitely not a laughing matter and our concerns are not just 'politics'.

To be clear, I don't think Debbie, as far as the admittedly limited conversations I've had with them go, uses womens loos.
The fact they were making a joke about the convoluted ironies of the battle for womens rights, is what I was referring to when I said it reflected the difference between a mans point of view and a womens, if that makes any sense.

Basically a bloke, however committed, and we have no reason to believe Debbie is not committed, can have a laugh about it, where as a women not so much.

Maybe I have not made myself clear. I am not arguing that single sex loos are not important.

Debbie has openly disregarded boundaries, I'm impressed at your ability to not register this and continue to defend the erosion of these rights. Debbie doesn't invite, Debbie impinges

I would also like to add that as far as I know Debbie does not and never has self ID in to womens spaces, they have always been emphatic on the point that they are only ever invited in to womens spaces

Crap. Debbie and I have been in the same spaces many times. I’ve seen Debbie come out of women’s loos in these spaces. Debbie has never asked my consent. Never. Debbie has always assumed it. And it has never been given.

That Debbie is held up as a protector of women’s rights by feminists is insane. Debbie doesn’t give a stuff for women.

I'd like to make clear that when I said 'the convoluted ironies of the battle for womens rights' I am not dismissing human rights for women as either trivial or a convoluted irrelevance.
The phrase was meant to point out the absurdity of a society so misogynistic that the very existence of the class of humans that basically underpins it, is up for debate.

And your wrong about Debbie, well as far as we know.

I need to stop, because I don't want to get banned.
But I suspect, if any of us saw in real life a young girl faced down by ANY man who felt entitled to get changed, or be in a private space with her, no matter his motivation, we would, to a woman, stand between them and bar the way to that man. No matter the consequences. No matter what name he goes by, or which pronouns, or what clothes. We would shield that child, that adolescent, from the man. We would deny him. We would put her first. We would protect. Her. Not him.

Every conversation I have on this subject is me, a mother, standing between an entitled man, barring the way to his route into my daughter's female space.
And with all my words I'm trying, and often failing, to have anyone who listens turn from facing that man, pitying that man, towards my child. I want them to metaphorically face my daughter. See HER. And then look, with open eyes, at the grown men who tell you they matter more than her. See them clearly for what they are.
No matter what bar they jumped, what certificate they gained, what rights they think they've claimed, ultimately the naked truth is that grown men are demanding access to young girls. Demanding these girls never, ever defy them. And every single man who does this, to a man, is not an ally.

And never once has he asked for consent from us.

Hayton is taking the piss.

Boundary erosion can sneak up on you though. There was a Sky item about self-id a short while before Posie's face-off with the doctor, and my sister happened to be visiting when it came on. Although she wasn't at all GC at that time she reacted immediately, said "why do they (Sky) have two transwoman on discussing this? Why isn't there a (biological) woman arguing for women?" It hadn't occurred to me, I was just so grateful that someone was there to argue for women's right to privacy. But I wondered afterward why DH didn't tell Sky it would be more appropriate to have a woman representing the GC female view.

"And your wrong about Debbie, well as far as we know."

Could you clarify where people are wrong?

Insurgents should be I suggest

If Debbie uses the womens loos where they work, given it has more than, say two other employees who are their besties, then I stand corrected. If this is the case they are stepping over womens boundaries.

Chiochan just to clarify also I was saying that you thought that the issue was trivial. I didn't see any of you posts before I posted mine. I am a slow writer! I was picking up on something a PP said about the issue regarding toilets being trivial - not to argue with the PP but to explain why I disagree with that statement. I don't have anything against DH, as such but I do believe DH uses women's toilets and I do believe that it is wrong and that DH needs to seriously reflect on this. I am too concerned about what is happening to sexually abused girls with regards to their boundaries and their wellbeing, to worry about a grown adult. However I certainly do accept that DH has taken some flack for DH's stance and I also think that the article DH did for the TES is/will be regarded more highly for being written by a transsexual male teacher and that will hopefully result in more teachers reading the excellent Transgender Trend guidance. The result of which will be increased safeguarding within schools.

I have never claimed that Debbie is not a man (is that allowed?) As far as I know they do not claim otherwise.

If I were starting a new job in DH’s school and saw DH in the women’s lavs with other women being quiet about it how could I speak out if I were uncomfortable? Particularly as an NQT?

It’s presented as a done deal to every new starter in DH’s school. And that’s not on. Before we even get started on DH having children apologise for “misgendering”.

They changed school policy so their teenage students call them miss.

Self id's while claiming self id is harmful.
Hypocrisy personified