Boundaries and Allies

[DancingRaven]

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

Always speaks down to or over women. When I see Hayton discussing women's rights like on the news I just see men talking about what we are permitted. Same old story.

And to add DH needs to stop using women's facilities and I would be pleased if they used their position as a teacher and father to make it clear that they thought it was unacceptable for schools and workplaces etc to allow males to 'identify' in to female facilities such as toilets.

Plenty of it about Spartacus, now women have started to speak out we'll find out more and more about supposed allies and our boundaries.

The gaslighting has been snuffed, finally.....

I know that I am being watched by people with vastly different opinions on this matter so I need to be careful what I say. In response to the main issue being discussed on this thread.

Firstly, I regret sharing in a private group a flippant report of a flippant comment I once made. I apologised to the group shortly afterwards and I apologise here. While I do sometimes use black humour to get through what life throws at me, in this case it was totally inappropriate.

Secondly, I respect the wishes of whoever is chairing a meeting I attend. I have joked about using buckets in the past. That was also flippant. Always arrangements have been made for trans people such as me that respect everyone's dignity. Indeed at Bloomsbury Baptist Church it was single use facilities for everyone as far as I could see.

In wider contexts I can make arguments for:
(a) Strict sex segregation;
(b) Segregation on the basis of apparent sex characteristics - i.e , GRS and hormone treatment;
(c) Segregation according to "the gender in which you are presenting".

The latter is the is the easiest to police in reality - and it's how things have worked for years. Transsexuals were quietly accommodated without anyone checking our GRS status.

However, things have changed. It isn't just Self-ID, a seeming sense of entitlement has damaged the trust and confidence that used to keep us all going. I saw this coming three years ago, and it led to my first blog on this topic: debbiehayton.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/caution-urged-when-parliament-debates-changes-to-trans-rights/

I recognise the strong feelings here. I also have strong feelings because this is personal to me. I am struggling with this at thee moment so I'm not going to indicate my current practice. However, I will say that one argument that really troubles me is:

By using the women's toilets, I make it more difficult for women to challenge those with nefarious intent ... the abusive male could say "well if it's OK for Debbie then why not me?"

That puts women in a very difficult position. I get that.

The threads where DH has discussed this are here to be read if you search for them - and I do respect that DH has engaged here and has never been less than civil.

But yes, DH has explained on those threads their feeling entitled to use women's spaces regardless of how women feel about them. If I remember right, one conversation went to the effect of how many women needed to consent for it to be ok, and if 75% were ok then would that be enough. Which disregards completely that the 25% refusing will include the most vulnerable of women who will have NO facilities in order to provide DH with access to choice of facilities.

DH is dismissive of the toilets issue in the same way that DH is dismissive of women's needs and concerns because to acknowledge there is a problem would endanger DH's personal access to women's spaces. DH's work against self ID shares ground with women, but is about protecting DH's personal access to women's spaces and how this is being threatened by the TRA agenda. It is not in any way about recognising or respecting women's rights or needs. As said, it was understanding this that switched me to believing this needs to end in no men in women's spaces. None. At all. Regardless of circumstance. They need other solutions.

Debbie Hayton absolutely uses women's toilets. Not only have they said so on here, they've said so in that tweet ('oops, too late'. Does not refer to them having wet themselves, despite the ambiguity).

It's undeniable. I don't get people saying otherwise.

DancingRaven - 'Could you clarify where people are wrong?'

To answer that, as I hate it when people ignore questions, I guess I am assuming this thread is about how Debbie Hayton as a man is attempting to occupy womens spaces.

And I think your wrong because, in the admittedly limmited, converations I have had with Debbie they have quite emphatically emphasised the fact they are male, biologically and as far as socialisation goes, and they have also been quite sure that they are mindful of respecting womens spaces and boundaries.

More broadly I think we should, as a movement, embrace genuine attempts, by anyone, to counter a male centric society.

Spartacus

As you're aware it's not just DH. Over the past month or so many "allies" have shown themselves to be mras, misogynistic pigs, porn obsessed, or lesbophobic.

Some have become undone themselves on Twitter for the GC world to see, others have tried to assert their male privilege by harassing GC women and calling them "tea trolls" to their followers, others will become undone in the time with multiple women speaking out.

D, cross post. I appreciate your posting and talking here and I appreciate that you are in a very difficult position. But women have to be honest and blunt about this because trying to be nice has led to this dire situation women are now facing.

Debbie this is not about you, can you not see that?

By using the women's toilets, I make it more difficult for women to challenge those with nefarious intent ... the abusive male could say "well if it's OK for Debbie then why not me?"

That puts women in a very difficult position. I get that.

I’m glad you get that, and hopefully also that a lot of women & girls may feel uncomfortable with your presence but unable to say so. You, Kristina Harrison & others who say they sympathise with women have the chance to set a very powerful example here by using men’s spaces.

By using the women's toilets, I make it more difficult for women to challenge those with nefarious intent ... the abusive male could say "well if it's OK for Debbie then why not me?"

That puts women in a very difficult position. I get that.

Well that's a step in the right direction. Although. I don't understand how it can be news exactly Debbie.

It is, after all, almost the Number One argument that women make.

Debbie you say I a lot in your post. It kinda shows what you’re concerned about

And btw - if you’re talking about either a, b, or c you need to be in the men’s.

DH's colleagues may be ok with sharing the women's facilities with them. However DH must by now be fully aware that by using the facilities they are opening the door to 'pervy Barry' to claim trans status and access women's facilities with ill intent.

Even if DH believes they are no risk to women and truly believes that they will not cause upset, to knowingly open the door to pervy Barry and his mate Jonathan is irresponsible and a massive 'Fuck You' to women.

Violating women's boundaries and discarding our rights - just banter according to Debbie.

By using the women's toilets, I make it more difficult for women to challenge those with nefarious intent ... the abusive male could say "well if it's OK for Debbie then why not me?"

Any man ignoring women's boundaries IS that abusive male.

@NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay

That is the key argument that I'm facing.

Spartacus most of it, like this, finds its way in here sooner or later. And then more pieces get added to the puzzle.