Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article

[Igneococcus]

Don't think there is a thread yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tangled-case-of-the-brothers-who-became-girls-aged-seven-and-three-dq7spwkdq?shareToken=70b8e4ed3bbe70db44d94b44731e6355

[GabrielleNelson]

Utterly shocking. Haven't read the full judgement yet but it's hard to see from the article how the judge could have come to this conclusion.

[eurochick]

A prime example of the "vegan cat" argument. It's obvious what is happening here.

[OrchidInTheSun]

There is another thread but it's not terribly clear it's about this case from the title: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3582478-Judge-over-rules-social-services-concerns

That article is very damning (as is the full judgement which seems to disregard the entire body of evidence on the basis of some dodgy statements by Pasterski)

[StealthPolarBear]

They've dropped all their concerns?! :o

[HeyDuggeesCakeBadge]

It is clear what is happening here and I cannot believe a judge agreed to keeping the children (particularly the Foster child) with the parents.

As pp said, the Foster child has likely suffered trauma prior to being put into the care system. Utterly vile.

[MajesticWhine]

Pasterski is the surname. Her first name is Vickie.

[Muststopfaffing]

This is awful, those poor children. I didn’t realise social services couldn’t remove a child from foster careers they had concerns about without court involvement.

[HappyPunky]

I didn't realise that either. Further down it says they want more children to foster. It sounds like the children are being experimented on. It also mentions a swimming pool. One of the kids almost drowned. They must be very well off it wouldn't surprise me if that's why they're getting away with it.

[groundcontroltomontydon]

It's been a while since I did family law - when did the paramountcy of the child give way to the vanity of the adult?

[Needmoresleep]

Someone was suggesting that it might involve this case:

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2019/30.html

This includes:
The threshold criteria that were drafted in July 2018 asserted that the children were suffering and were likely to suffer significant harm, such harm being attributable to the care given to them not being what is expected of a reasonable parent. The nature of the harm/likelihood of harm alleged was neglect and impairment of the child's physical, intellectual, emotional, social, and behavioural development. The central limbs were contained within 6 paragraphs each supported by 'facts relied upon' in subparagraphs.
i) TP and CP frequently seek referrals/diagnosis for the children in their care for medical conditions relying on symptoms which are not witnessed by other professionals involved in their care. This results in unnecessary investigations by medical professionals and has resulted in them being recorded as having health conditions which are not evidence based. (The facts relied upon identified issues in connection with the health of E, R, H, K, and MY, a foster child.)
ii) TP and CP persistently pursue mental health diagnoses for children in their care. They provide information to professionals which is not supported by other professionals involved with the children's care and use their knowledge of mental health services to provide information designed to maximise the chances of a referral to specialists. This behaviour has escalated recently (9 facts dating from 2006 to 2018 are identified in support of this).
iii) TP and CP have acted in a precipitate manner in relation to perceived gender dysphoria in children in their care.
iv) TP and CP are resistant to acknowledging any potential disadvantages to R and H of being identified as transgender prematurely and the impact on their emotional, physical and sexual development. They are unable to provide appropriate and balanced support to R and H to make informed decisions as they get older.
v) C has had four A&E attendances for incidents due to a lack of appropriate supervision by TP and CP (Incidents on 7 April 2014, 26 October 2014, 13 June 2015 and 21 February 2016 are relied on.)
vi) TP and CP have failed to prioritise the needs of the children in their care. Despite having care of a large number of children with complex health needs and presentations who need a high level of attention, TP and CP have consistently sought to have additional foster children placed in their care in order to meet their own needs, whether emotional or financial (11 facts are identified which are said to support this).

(TP and CP are the parents.)

I am no expert, indeed the only previous family court judgement I have read was the one deciding that David Challenor's children should be taken into care. Both appear to have involved parents with concerns about their children having physical as well as mental and gender issues.

[RedToothBrush]

If you can afford a family swimming pool it seems you can do anything without proper questions being asked by social services because you can take it to court with 'experts'.

[LangCleg]

It is the same case as the other thread Orchid posted.

Glad Gilligan thoroughly covered it. Here is the full judgement:

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2019/30.html

A previous judge in the case, HHJ Singleton QC, was the one who gave permission for Pasterski to be used as the "gender" expert.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Glad this is getting the light of day. I don't think this is the end of the case.

It will be a while until this sort of thing makes it into safeguarding training case examples unfortunately but the sooner it does the better.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Interesting background


www.thelondontransgenderclinic.uk/our-transgender-surgery-practice-london/dr-vickie-pasterski/

[donquixotedelamancha]

Pasterski’s view is disputed by the NHS’s gender identity development service (Gids) clinic

Thank goodness this judge didn't listen to the doctor's.

[kesstrel]

The whole subject of Munchausens by proxy, also called fabricated or induced illness (FII) is fraught with peril for medical practitioners. The persecution of David Southall throughout his career by MAMA and the press would be sufficient to warn anyone off from getting involved.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Southall#Respiratory_research_and_child_protection_work

It's desperately sad for all the children affected by FII that there can be no rescue for them. And truly grim to see transing of children being added to the range of damaging behaviours perpetrated by FII parents/carers. It would be interesting to know how many of the parents on those American forums for parents of 'transkids' that were published recently are actually affected by FII.

[kesstrel]

The whole subject of Munchausens by proxy, also called fabricated or induced illness (FII) is fraught with peril for medical practitioners. The persecution of David Southall throughout his career by MAMA and the press would be sufficient to warn anyone off from getting involved.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Southall#Respiratory_research_and_child_protection_work

It's desperately sad for all the children affected by FII that there can be no rescue for them. And truly grim to see transing of children being added to the range of damaging behaviours perpetrated by FII parents/carers. It would be interesting to know how many of the parents on those American forums for parents of 'transkids' that were published recently are actually affected by FII.

[kesstrel]

Sorry for double post

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Who are the referrals to for the medical interventions?

Clinical Research & Practice. From 2008 to 2016, Vickie worked as a Clinical Research Psychologist in Paediatric Endocrinology at Addenbrooke’s Hospital, Cambridge University NHS Trust. There she was a primary contributing member of a multidisciplinary team charged with diagnosis and clinical management of DSD. Also since 2008, Vickie has maintained a private clinical practice, diagnosing gender dysphoria and providing referrals for gender affirming medical interventions. She is recognized by the UK Ministry of Justice as a Gender Specialist, providing reports for Gender Recognition Certificate applicants. She has helped more than 500 individuals transition and maintains working relationships with surgeons and gender specialists in Europe, North America, and Asia.

[CottonDuvet]

I am glad that social services actually heard the alarm bells ringing and at least tried to do something about it.

I hope that judge feels really really bad when the truth finally dawns on her/him. And that the kids manage somehow to thrive.

I am betting that Vickie is not an expert on attachment disorders in fostered children.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

I've just read the other thread; definitely a link to Dr Webberly.

The 'evidence about desistence rates' Pasterski queries is clearly what happens when children are coerced and told untruths.

There a difference between allowing a child to enjoy their interests and telling them lies about their body leading to unnecessary medicine to fix an imaginary illness. I've seen the former play out very healthily.

[TeaEnjoyingRadiantFeminist]

Is Paterski MTF as it's a male name, Paterska would be the female version, however it could just be as they are American they have anglicised the name.

It's becoming more common to keep one form of the surname for the whole family now in the UK, or at least in my experience. Particularly for second/third generations born in the UK or brits marrying into a polish family (since British names don't have gendered endings), so I don't think that alone is indicative of a transition.

This ruling is horrifying. Absolutely terrifying that the last bastion of protection for these children has failed so miserably. Hopefully this will open more eyes in the public, but for those children it will be too late. They will never be able to grow up and find out who they really are or might have been had they been in a placement that protected them. That chance has been taken away from them and it's heartbreaking.

[Popchyk]

From the judgment:

"In September 2013 R told a member of the school staff that she did not think life was worth living but no further local authority involvement followed and it seems that R was under the care of the local CAMHS was also having some ongoing contact with the Tavistock and with the Mermaid Group (a support group recommended by the Tavistock)".

Interesting that the judge refers to Mermaids as being recommended by the Tavistock.