Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article

[Igneococcus]

Don't think there is a thread yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tangled-case-of-the-brothers-who-became-girls-aged-seven-and-three-dq7spwkdq?shareToken=70b8e4ed3bbe70db44d94b44731e6355

Lang. Understood. However my point was that it is hard enough for 'ordinary' parents. What is it like for foster parents needing to toe some assumed, but unknown, line.

This was in response to posts which suggested the foster parents are at fault. They may be a fault, but there are an awful lot of people in positions of responsibility that I would blame first.

to twodogsthreecats. Thank you for posting. It is important to realise we are talking about real children, often with very concerned parents/carers.

Maybe I’m being over sensitive, but I have commented because I am caring for a child who was removed from biological parents because of very serious concerns and trauma, and who has dysmorphia and gender issues which are connected to the very serious trauma she has undergone.

3dogs2cats The requests for focus on this thread was specifically on the needs of children such as who you're caring for.

There's a real need for voices such as yours to be heard.

Phew that’s ok then.

I saw this article the other day about Trafford (another Greater Manchester area) and how their social services are failing before the Sunday Times piece. I was tempted to post it but couldn't find a thread it fitted in well with, but this seems to be on the mark and highly relevant.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/social-care-services-trafford-failing-16241722
Social care services in Trafford are failing vulnerable children - bosses had no idea
Ofsted chiefs said local leaders 'had no awareness of the decline in services'

From the article:
Social care services in Trafford are failing vulnerable and at-risk children - and bosses had no idea, a watchdog has said.

Ofsted has rated the department 'inadequate' and demanded drastic improvements are made.

Inspectors uncovered a catalogue of failings, detailed in a damning report.

Council bosses were said to have had 'no awareness' of how bad things were - and thought services were 'good' or 'outstanding'.

and

Inspectors said that for most children, assessments do 'not fully consider their past life experiences'.

Only a minority of kids' 'wishes and feelings' are well understood and recorded, the report said.

There is also insufficient analysis 'of the impact of children's experiences, and their views are not always recorded, Ofsted bosses said.

"Children’s identity needs are not well considered, particularly when children are from a black or minority ethnic background," the report added.

"This leads to ineffective analysis of risk and need for some children."

Its really striking, and suggests there is a widespread problem with social services (which there is plenty of evidence for) and Lisa Muggeridge made a point about. Within this, kids are falling through the cracks and almost fitting in with the ideas that politicians are pushing on an idealogical level. As such they are doubly invisible to those ultimately responsible for the services, because a) the local councillors have no idea of the failure of child protection services more generally b) are willfully blind to issues relating particularly to the trans ideology because they believe in trans ideology without question.

I absoluetely agree with people saying that this thread needs to be about children in care.

I will say from my own point of view as an adult who had a sibling who transitioned, that I felt unable to cope with the situation and struggled to process it and I reflect on what is publically known about the situation about Lily Madigan's family and how a sister struggled to cope. I've always described it as having a grenade go off in your family, and everything that you know as being 'fixed' is turned on its head. You can't rely on anything as being stable. Your own identity is also very much connected to your position and relationships with your siblings, in a way that you don't realise until something happened to upset that 'natural balance'.

I will then pose in that context, how is a young child from a traumatic background equiped to cope with that? I think its home situation which is particularly toxic to someone who is in foster care and I question any foster child being placed within that.

It is important to realise we are talking about real children, often with very concerned parents/carers

Its important to engage with the reality of the situation for some children who have been profoundly harmed by parents/carers.

Last year a woman called Debbie shared her story in the hope that others might learn from it. Debbie was profoundly affected by being sexually abused as a child by her father. This and the complex PTSD she had were not identified until she was in her 60's and had been wrongly affirmed as having a male 'gender identity' & being transgender.

Mirror,
"I'm still Debbie": Man reveals sex change was "greatest mistake" - and he wants to be a woman again
Lee Harries wasn't transgender - but instead was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD, after years of sexual abuse.

(extract)
"I was traumatised by what had happened in my life and it was misdiagnosed as being transgender.

"I was vulnerable, I just though that if I wasn't a girl my life would be different, I would be different, I would be accepted and that would be it.

"I thought that becoming a man would make me worthy and I would become a different person."

He added: "I'm not a man, I am an approximation of a man.

"I wish I could wake up as Debbie and realise that the last 15 years were just as bad a nightmare."

Lee primarily blames his father for what has happened to him.

But he says he believes the private psychiatrist who started off his transition should have "picked up on the fact I was abused".

"I should have had help somewhere along the line," he said.

"Nobody ever raised the idea that I could feel like this due to trauma. Not once - until it was all done.

"I have spent my life despising my own body." (continues)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-still-debbie-man-reveals-13532989

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

Maybe I’m being over sensitive, but I have commented because I am caring for a child who was removed from biological parents because of very serious concerns and trauma, and who has dysmorphia and gender issues which are connected to the very serious trauma she has undergone. So I am not trying to hijack this thread I have current knowledge of Care proceedings, childhood trauma, and Childrens Services, and I have learnt loads from coming here.

I wasn't speaking to any individual at all. Certainly not you, lovey!

I was trying to refocus the thread where it belongs: on Looked After children who have been removed from the usual source of protection (their families) due to trauma and abuse and who are entirely at the whims of the state and its various proxies - family courts, SS, and yes, foster parents (as a group, not individually). A more powerless group of children does not exist.

We know that childhood trauma leads to issues of identity formation very often - including, but certainly not limited to, trans identities. That the entire state apparatus involved in these children's care has ended in a court judgement that entirely dismissed this long-held knowledge is the topic of the thread.

That normal, loving families dealing with ROGD have few resources to call upon other than extremist gender ideology lobby groups is an important issue. But one for a different thread.

Its really striking, and suggests there is a widespread problem with social services (which there is plenty of evidence for) and Lisa Muggeridge made a point about. Within this, kids are falling through the cracks and almost fitting in with the ideas that politicians are pushing on an idealogical level. As such they are doubly invisible to those ultimately responsible for the services, because a) the local councillors have no idea of the failure of child protection services more generally b) are willfully blind to issues relating particularly to the trans ideology because they believe in trans ideology without question.

This is exactly what I mean by the most voiceless and powerless group you can imagine. These structures are supposed to be their voices.

The Spectator has picked up this story too:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/the-danger-of-letting-children-transition-gender-too-early/

by Leyla Sanai

Not adding anything extra, but at least it's continuing to raise awareness.

Adults with borderline personality disorder often report lots of childhood trauma. One of the defining characteristics of Bpd is a weak sense of identity or self, another is a feeling of emptiness. In those Circs, particularly if there has been sexual abuse, becoming someone else entirely can seem really attractive.But still not getting past younger child being 3.

Way younger than 3. This child cannot have been older than 20 months when concerns were first raised in August 2013.

Wow

I am absolutely stunned, I just popped back to read this thread and see my perfectly tame, polite, factual post has been deleted for breaking 'guidelines'

With all the nasty, Vicious things that are allowed to slide on Mumsnet I'm genuinely curious as to what on earth I said that could have offended.

Anybody any idea?

I said something along the lines of finding it very sad as I am a foster carer and that the toddler was probably already traumatised in some way.

There have been a few deletions, Fire.

I didn't see anything problematic on any of the posts when I read them yesterday.

You should have had an email from MNHQ, explaining the reasons. If not, ask them to explain why they've deleted. They will reinstate if they feel that they have made a mistake.

Oh ok thanks for the reply I did check my emails but nothing, never been deleted before, hardly ever post!

Oh, and Fire.

If your post was deleted for speculation about the trauma endured by the toddler before the toddler was placed with foster parents, your speculation was correct

From the court report upthread (this is in the public domain).

"On 21 December 2012 H and C were placed with CP and TP. H had sustained very serious injuries including skull fractures and associated subdural bleeding arising from shaking and impact mechanisms. He had also sustained spinal fractures, rip fractures and intra retinal haemorrhages. C had sustained a fracture to his upper left humerus caused by forceful squeezing or gripping and rotation of the bone".

Oh bless them that is horrific. I didn't speculate as such I just said that they would have had some disruption or trauma, even children removed from homes where there hasn't been 'direct abuse' eg. I have cared for a child whose parents weren't nasty but due to special needs and multiple children couldn't meet the basic needs or keep them safe but there is still the trauma of being removed from everything you've ever known before you even add anything else into the mix. As foster carers we are taught that even being removed at birth is a type of trauma/loss to a baby as it comes into the world recognising it's mother's voice and smell.

This whole case is a giant mess 😢

Thanks for the reply

I've had a deletion on this thread. No email to explain why.

I definitely didn't get an email - I checked again, also I emailed HQ on there contact us address (unless I should have used a different one) and still no response.

Firecarrier If you click report post where yours has been deleted & comment there, it may be easier to make contact with MN.

Thanks, I did report my last message bit not sure how long they take to reply

Its very concerning that on a thread such as this two MN members with particular insight due to personal relationships have had posts deleted.

Firecarrier is a foster carer & RedToothBrush has described the impact of a family member's adult 'transition'

Trauma is very relevent & one has to question the motivation of monitors who seek to silence women whose contributions acknowledge & understand this.

relevent thread about coercive control/abuse patterns:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

I have a fair idea why my post was deleted. It didn't break guidelines but might have been too honest and blunt. Plus it stated the blindly obvious about the publicity surrounding the case.

I can't be arsed to pursue MN over it. It'll get no where, and I know it.

The moderators haven't been 'inside' the dynamics of how it affects a family though. Nor have the politicians.

I'm so used to wives and families being silenced and told to suck it up, I haven't the energy to fight all the time. This particular story has upset me more than most though.

I have withdrawn from my own family because of the toxicity around this ideology. For my own mental well being. I just can not see how it's good for those who are vulnerable and I would be wary about relations with such a family because of my own experiences. Transphobic? Or because I just know what it's like being told that black is white in the context of the foundations of your security and that the fundamentals of your own identity come second to trans ideology.

As I say, it's a grenade in a family set up. Every time I've read about similar or know of similar families they are monumentally fucked up, often with at least one other family member badly affected by the fall out. It's NEVER just about the mental well being of the trans person - be they adult or child. And our failure to recognise this - on a political level, a social services level or a purely social support level (friendships, organisations or just the ability to talk about experiences) is harming people who have direct experience and contact with it.

It destroys the sense of self, it destroys the sense of true identity. Trying to live a constant lie is exhausting and it only spirals and sucks in others.

No one speaks of the reality. No one is allowed to. No one cares. Not about me, not about trans widows, not about ROGD girls and certainly not about kids like this, who no doubt should just be grateful that a loving family is willing to take them in.

Cos that's how it works. The 'Liberal Identity' of proving how tolerant and inclusive you are is more important.

It forgot that liberalism is founded on the principle of the 'on balance' argument for society in which we all have a stake and the truly vulnerable always have someone to stick up for them. Instead they have just become invisible and with no one thinking from multiple points of view in order to make an 'on balance' assessment to minimise harm to as many as possible.

The collateral damage in this case is overwhelmingly groups who have long been those who have been marginalised - the abused wife, the lesbian, the cared for child...

... As I say, those in power do not care. It does not win them votes and in an age of populism that's all that counts. It's every man for himself.

Red toothbrush, you speak a lot of sense, it seems though that 'The powers that be' often disagree with us!

Incidentally, I have finally had a reply, apparently my post was deleted because it contained assertions or incivility 😂

See below:

Hi there,
Thanks for getting in touch. We deleted your post, reproduced below, because it was featured both assertion and incivility.

"This has really upset me
Pasterski is either evil or completely deluded, goes to show being used as a court expert witness and having a string of letters after your name doesn't stand for much.
As a foster carer I am horrified that these vile manipulative people have been allowed to do this and been patted on the head by a judge, it sounds like children's services tried to fight on behalf of these poor children but were completely ignored.
It says that one little boy came to them as a toddler, he would have already been emotionally damaged then within around a year they were dressing him as a girl.
I am sickened, they should be struck off and in prison.
This is where the slippery slope leads."

I guess it was that little word 'evil' someone objected to, well I stand by it as that is what it is and I will not be silenced so stick that in your pipe Mumsnet.

Assertion?

a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief

That assertion?

Are we not allowed to assert anymore?

I'm just expecting to be 'banned' for daring to assert that it is evil to do that to those vulnerable children.

Wouldn't surprise me. What an interesting world we now live in eh?

And I actually said evil OR deluded.