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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article

163 replies

Igneococcus · 12/05/2019 06:34

Don't think there is a thread yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tangled-case-of-the-brothers-who-became-girls-aged-seven-and-three-dq7spwkdq?shareToken=70b8e4ed3bbe70db44d94b44731e6355

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 12/05/2019 12:10

In August 2013 an anonymous referral received by the local authority from a member of the extended family under the heading 'preoccupation with and encouragement of gender dysphoria in 3 children'.

H would have been less than 2 years old at the time.

GabrielleNelson · 12/05/2019 12:14

There's no information in the report about TP's and CP's two elder birth children, as they are now adults in their early 20s. There seem to have been concerns about the third and fourth birth children.

People who know about fostering and child protection, I assume it's extremely difficult to find foster parents willing to take on children who've been through major trauma in early life? For understandable reasons.

happydappy2 · 12/05/2019 12:42

So far over 70 comments on that article, every single one horrified at what is being done to those children-this decision must be appealed.

LangCleg · 12/05/2019 12:45

What also strikes me is that the parts of Pasterski's evidence the judge relied on were not concerned with the individual children but with treatment protocols - which are at odds with the NHS.

Yes, exactly.

One would have hoped that, given warning bells being rung by other experts, the judge might have questioned this and even required further reports before accepting the LA's application to discontinue.

LangCleg · 12/05/2019 12:46

this decision must be appealed

There is no party to appeal it! That's the point! Only the judge could have told the LA they could not discontinue and he did not!

picklemepopcorn · 12/05/2019 13:11

As a foster carer, I find this odd in many ways. It's all too easy for SS to remove children from FCs.
It could be because of the SGO- effectively they are no longer fostered.

ColdFingered · 12/05/2019 14:16

I'm glad this awful case has had a decent write up. The previous daily mail piece didn't make clear what had happened.

It's in the Mail again now
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7019831/Three-year-old-changes-boy-girl-living-foster-parents-son-transitioned-aged-seven.html

And interestingly has a link to the story in The Times at the bottom.

ChattyLion · 12/05/2019 14:25

This is nightmarish. How can responsible adult people be allowed to do this to small children in their care? It’s awful.

JudithButlerNot · 12/05/2019 14:30

The question about experts - this is usually argued over at about the second hearing, and then the Letter of Instruction to the expert has to be agreed. It may have been at that point that the LA took their eye off the ball.

It was heard by a High Court judge which may be significant in terms of how serious the courts are taking this.

OvaHere · 12/05/2019 14:33

This story is horrifying.

Even if you are someone who believes that true transgender identity exists in a small proportion of the population you must surely recognise that 3 children in one family (2 of them being fostered) is a massive red flag for something else going on.

LangCleg · 12/05/2019 14:56

The question about experts - this is usually argued over at about the second hearing, and then the Letter of Instruction to the expert has to be agreed. It may have been at that point that the LA took their eye off the ball.

That's what I'm assuming.

DuMondeB · 12/05/2019 15:08

I read somewhere that there is a high proportion of trans identifying kids in the looked after population, but I can’t remember where I read it or if it was U.K. figures or not. Does anyone know where I might have picked up this info snippet?

I suppose you could interpret a high percentage in foster/adoptive care as ‘trans kids are rejected by birth families’ OR as ‘traumatised kids are more likely to experience dysphoria-like symptoms as a reaction to that trauma’.

Anonymous case studies mentioned by ‘controversial’ (aka not-immediately-affirming) doctors such as Zucker (Canada) suggest the latter, but the former could explain the presence of more than 1 trans kid in a foster family...

... or at least, it could if the child was indicating trans identity before being fostered, clearly not the case in the younger child in this family (too young to express it).

OvaHere · 12/05/2019 15:12

I remember that info. I think it might have been Michael Laidlaw in reference to US kids. Not 100% sure on that though.

Kilbranan · 12/05/2019 15:41

This is so, so wrong. Foster kids will all have had some kind of trauma in their lives and we know early trauma is associated with gender dysphoria and well as other mental health problems. This presents the clearest case for treating the trauma rather than affirmation of what the children are stating. Why would any judge go along with this? And what is the parental gain by having lots of transgender kids? Attention? Feeling more special? Media interest? What a disgrace Angry

DuMondeB · 12/05/2019 16:10

This is interesting and feels related - if only in an authorities behaving in an overly woke -way.

US parents file lawsuit after well meaning (?) teacher encourages 8 year old boy to come out as trans, when really, boy just didn’t want to use shared stall type toilets (which generally have massive blimmin’ gaps underneath compared to what we are used to in the U.K.)

Boy is understandably emotionally distressed after the teacher tried to convince him he was really a girl.

eu.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2019/05/08/parents-sue-woodburn-school-district-after-teacher-gives-transgender-lessons/1131460001/
m.youtube.com/watch?v=A7e3NptBQtI

Needmoresleep · 13/05/2019 08:01

Taking a step back, is it worth asking what support the parents are getting, indeed what support is available for parents.

Speculation only, but a family with an unhappy 7 year old gender non-conforming child, financial problems, and perhaps other problems within the family or faced by family members. (A tough menopause even.)

In terms of available family support, almost signposts lead to Mermaids or their allies. And from them, potentially, to the good Doctors Pasterski and Webberley. So gender affirmation might be the magic bullet...as we all know ...better than a dead child.... Still an unhappy family, with a worried mum and troubled child but lots of people telling them they are doing the right thing.

Then you add to the mix, one or two very troubled toddlers. The father, as I glean from the slightly confusing details, was a social worker and is perceived to be level headed, and they need the money. Plus people are telling them they did the right thing with the older child, so are well placed to cope with a challenging foster placement.

One of these very young children: perhaps because of earlier trauma; perhaps because they want to fit in with their new family and siblings; perhaps because of failings in the foster parenting...who knows. We do know that gender non-conformity is a sign of earlier trauma, and it might be just that the parents are aware of the signs and quick to take affirmative action, simply because of the earlier support they have had.

But then the school, rightly alert to their responsibilities to a previously traumatised child in foster care, or a concerned GC relative, cause SS to look at the whole file with a different pair of glasses. The family lawyer up, hiring an "expert" and the council lawyer suggests that could be expensive, the case is not cut and dried and they could lose, and that money is better spend on helping other vulnerable children.

But the family push on. Why? Are they the actors or the puppets? Given they have apparently got financial problems, who is paying? Who found the expert? Who wants the precedent? Will other Local Authorities use this case as a bench mark in the future?

The court report suggests that the 13 year old is unhappy, and that the mum is showing signs of distress. Hey...go onto to the teenager board and do a quick poll of how an unhappy child affects the mental health of a mother. They possibly should not be fostering, but removing a child is different to placing a child.

Of course there could be parallels to David Challenor and the repeated parental concerns about the children's health. But equally could the fault lie with a wider society who provide lottery funding for Mermaids et al to deliver support to families with an unhappy child showing signs of gender non-conformity. Where do they go? If the child also shows sign of autism the NAS will direct them to Mermaids. Stonewall et al trained schools, social workers, etc will steer them in the same direction. Many therapists will advocate affirmative action only. Virtually none of our politicians are speaking out, Penny Maudant's promised enquiry seems to have hit the buffers, and the Lottery (ie us) has just given £500,000 to Mermaids to support such families.

There is a massive problem. I know two families with a ROGD child. Bright intelligent successful families who are able to do their own research and come to a watchful-waiting conclusion. (Which I think is instinctive for most parents dealing with many childhood issues. issues. You don't deny the child and cut off communication, but you cross your fingers hard and hope they grow out of it - especially when statistics suggest they will.) There seems to be virtually no support for these families. Schools, therapists, even their families and social networks seem to have drunk the kool-aid. You can share your distress about a child with anorexia, with say, your book club. ROGD is so much more unpredictable, especially in the same educated metropolitan circles.

Great that the TES is finally challenging the Allsorts-type doctrines. But until parents have a genuine choice between support from Mermaids type organisations and watchful-waiting organisations like Transgender Trend, which means equal funding, we will see more of these cases.

We can't just blame the parents.

Andrew Gilligan and the Mail are doing a great job of bringing the case to public attention, which may go some way to re-balancing the precedent set by the court (and thank you to the social worker or whoever, who alerted the papers to the case) but families need help before then.

Its a long time since I did one, but I used to write a mean funding bid. If there is anyone out there who feels up to providing "watchful waiting" family support I would be happy to work on a Lottery, or similar, bid. As I said, we can't just blame the families if we don't provide them with the support they might be seeking.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2019 08:11

Guardian article:

Governor of Tavistock Foundation quits over damning report into gender identity clinic
(extract)
Marcus Evans, one of the governors of The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust has resigned, after accusing its management of having an “overvalued belief in” the expertise of its Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) “which is used to dismiss challenge and examination”.

Evans’s decision to part company with the London-based trust, after a 35-year association, will intensify scrutiny of the service which has found itself in the eye of a storm as thousands of young people considering transitioning to another gender seek its help. (continues)

The service has been struggling to contain the fallout from an internal report by Dr David Bell, written in his capacity as then staff governor, which warned that “the GIDS service as it now functions [is] not fit for purpose and children’s ends are being met in a woeful, inadequate manner and some will live on with the damaging consequences”.

In his report, which was submitted to the trust’s board earlier this month and whose findings were first reported in the Observer last year, Bell expressed concern that the service was failing to fully consider psychological and social factors in a young person’s background – such as whether they had been abused, suffered a bereavement or had autism – which might influence their decision to transition. Such views are dismissed by many transgender rights activists who believe they play little, if any, part in a person’s desire to transition." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3516110-Tavistock-Governor-quits

R0wantrees · 13/05/2019 08:31

Taking a step back, is it worth asking what support the parents are getting, indeed what support is available for parents.

Speculation only, but a family with an unhappy 7 year old gender non-conforming child, financial problems, and perhaps other problems within the family or faced by family members.

Then you add to the mix, one or two very troubled toddlers...

These were foster placements required for very vulnerable young childrenwho had experienced significant abuse/neglect/trauma sufficient to have been taken into Care.

This case is about the responsibilities towards very vulnerable Looked After Children who will have been harmed at a very young age by adults actions/inactions including the impact of being removed from their parent/s

The role, responsibility, expectation, support for foster parents has significant differences.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683698/Applying_corporate_parenting_principles_to_looked-after_children_and_care_leavers.pdf

Popchyk · 13/05/2019 08:43

Canada as always leads the way.

thefederalist.com/2019/04/01/doctor-advises-threatening-suicide-get-transgender-treatments-kids/#.XKIjnkTZMIM.twitter

The psychologist who deemed Maxine transgender is psychologist Wallace Wong.

"On February 28, the day after Bowden’s decision was released, Wong spoke at an event hosted by Vancouver Public Library. In a tape of the event obtained by Canadian pro-family group Culture Guard, Wong is heard proudly describing the scope of his children-only “gender therapy” practice, noting that his youngest client is not yet three years old and that he has 501 orphans and foster kids in his local practice".

R0wan started a thread on Mumsnet about the vulnerabilities of looked after children in this country.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3324578-Vunerabilities-of-Looked-After-Children-Social-Work-CP-restricted-by-affirmation-requirement-Trans-Youth-in-Care-Toolkit?msgid=84641246

Tara Hewitt, Inclusion and Engagement Manager of the NHS, and a founder of TELI, talks of the importance of making the time to speak to Looked After Children about their gender identity.

andyoldlabour · 13/05/2019 08:57

Dr Vickie Pasterski is a supporter of Helen Webberley and the latest recruit for this organisation.
These (and other) poor children are just a political football for this ideology to use and abuse.
Why is it that our judiciary and other bodies, use these people to make such far reaching decisions?

www.thelondontransgenderclinic.uk/our-transgender-surgery-practice-london/dr-vickie-pasterski/

R0wantrees · 13/05/2019 09:06

Why is it that our judiciary and other bodies, use these people to make such far reaching decisions?

Having read some of Dr Pasterski's professional CV, it is easy to see how she could have been accepted as 'expert witness' by all parties in the first case.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2019 09:11

However:

This BMJ article has som useful information to understand the role and staus of 'expert witnesses':

(extract)
"Legal duties of an expert witness
Whether you are acting as an expert in civil, GMC, or coroner’s proceedings, you are expected to work within a fairly strict legal framework as laid down in the Civil Procedure Rules. This duty to the court is paramount, and you are required to give independent evidence, uninfluenced by the pressures of litigation and over-riding any duties to the instructing solicitors. You must be familiar with part 35 of the Civil Procedure Rules and the Practice Direction, which provides guidance on the expert’s role and responsibilities, as well as the GMC’s guidance “Acting as an Expert Witness.”

What makes a good medical expert?
As an expert witness, the GMC requires you to be “honest, trustworthy, objective and impartial.” (continues)

You should restrict your opinion to specific areas in which you have relevant knowledge and direct expertise. A paediatric orthopaedic surgeon should not accept instructions on adult orthopaedic surgery if he or she has not carried out the procedure criticised for many years. Your expertise must be relevant at the time of the criticism and at the time of the report." (coninues)
www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.g7856

This article has more information: www.themdu.com/guidance-and-advice/guides/consultant-pack/acting-as-an-expert-witness

Its easy to see why Dr Pasterski was accepted as a 'gender identity' expert given her credentials.

One potential issue seems to be whether she also has sufficient professional expertise in the impact of severe early childhood abuse/trauma and understanding/recognising emotional abuse.

2015 document: "Responsibilities of psychiatrists who provide expert
opinion to courts and tribunals"

The expert’s duties to the court include:
z a duty to assist the process of justice

z a duty to act impartially, objectively and honestly

z a duty to reveal any actual or potential conflict of interest

z a duty to make clear the limits of their knowledge or competence

z a duty to give testimony only in their area or field of expertise

z a duty to state the substance of all facts and instructions given
to them which are material to the opinions expressed in their
report or on which their opinions are based

z a duty to indicate the source of factual information, including
where they have no personal knowledge

z a duty to be accurate and complete

z a duty to mention all matters that they regard as relevant to the
opinions they have expressed

z a duty to draw to the attention of the court all matters that might
adversely affect their opinion

z a duty not to include in their evidence anything that has been
suggested to them by anyone, including the lawyers instructing
them, without forming their own independent view of the matter

z a duty to provide the court with evidence about the range of
opinion, or reasonable opinion, in that area or field, including in
regard to the case at hand

z a duty to make it clear if their opinion is in is any way qualified
or provisional

z a duty promptly to communicate any change of opinion and the
reasons for such change
(continues)

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/college-report-cr193.pdf?sfvrsn=c0381b24_2

As Andrew Gilliagan's Times article demonstrates, some of Dr Pasterski's evidence is in conflict with the approach and professional opinion of the NHS Tavistock (which secifically treats children).

does Dr Pastesrki have sufficient paediatric expertise & experience or is her paractice predominately working with adults as seems likely?

Its also very important to consider the substantial whistleblown Safeguarding & Duty of Care growing concerns of other doctors from the field about the medical treatment of children.

See important panel at the House of Lords this week discussing these issues:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3583824-Let-your-MP-know-about-this-asap

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145612-Tavistock-psychologist-is-worried-about-rush-to-label-kids-as-trans

littlbrowndog · 13/05/2019 09:16

Thanks rowan and needsmoresleep

Great posts as this is something I don’t know much if anything about

Rainatnight · 13/05/2019 09:30

Wow, I don't get this at all. I'm an adoptive parent, so know a bit about foster care as our DC were in foster care before coming to us. Their foster carers' work was highly bound by rules, to the point that they couldn't, say, read the DC a story in their bedrooms (has to be in communal family area), or take the DC (who were only babies) into bed with them.

And birth parents still have some rights when kids are in foster care - one of our FCs was fostering a little mixed race boy whose mum wanted a particular hair oil put in his hair, so FC did this.

AND FCs are under obligations to promote the kids' identity (which often comes down to ethnicity), so I don't see how they can just get away with totally overturning their identity.

It just all seems a bit bonkers.

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