Sorry, sport and trans again

[HairyBallTheorem]

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

Of course, some of sport is inherently “unfair.” Not everyone gets to win.

Hey, there's always dressage.

There are 7 point something billion people on the planet. Fairly sure 7 point something (the same something allowing for rounding up) could tell you whether that balding person on the podium in that photo was a man or a woman.

Claiming you have no idea is just bollocking. And we can all see you pretending.

Dressage, or “taking the credit for the work of my incredibly clever horse”

Let's have another go at explaining the 5 sigma thing.

The lower IOC limit is 10nmol/litre. Normal female testosterone is abut 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/litre. Naively you might think that this means a multiple of 4 in terms of likely/unlikely. But you'd be wrong. That limit of 10 nmol/litre is 5 sigma away from the mean of the female distribution. Now, if you're not a working scientist this may not mean much to you, but fortunately physics.org is here to explain it for you...

"5 sigma is a measure of how confident scientists feel their results are. If experiments show results to a 5 sigma confidence level, that means if the results were due to chance and the experiment was repeated 3.5 million times then it would be expected to see the strength of conclusion in the result no more than once."

That's right - barring women with intersex conditions, there's maybe one natal woman in the whole bloody world who has testosterone as high as 10nmol/litre naturally. To all intents and purposes, it does not happen naturally. The IOC are letting political pressure from the trans lobby sway the rules, rather than science.

Thank you all for your mostly lucid and reasoned responses (i say mostly as questioning the genitals of my partner is weird and as said earlier quite frankly no one elses business).

Apologies to the OP i seem to have derailed your thread a little! As someone who was assigned overweight and ginger at birth, i'm not accustomed to lots of people talking to be at once, mostly I get ignored - sorry for not responding to each message in turn.

To try and explain where i'm coming from, the problem i have with the traditional gender critical narrative I can boil down to one simple question; what if?
A thought experiment i've been running in my head is, what if it's true? What if the person inside a trans women really is a woman, the same as my mum or me or anyone else? If it is true can you imagine what it must feel like? What if the person at the controls really is female? No one ever told me whether i would be left or right handed, like or dislike the tastes of certain foods or what my sexual orientation would be. These things we know instinctively. What if trans is the same? In the infinite variety of nature, surely this could be considered a possibility?
I like to think that my biological traits don't limit me to having to follow a path i don't want to and i can amount to more that my chromosomes. I will always feel that should extend to all humans.

In terms of sports obviously more research is required. Apart from dressage, you're on your own with that one ;)

What if women in sports want to compete fairly, on a level playing field, against other women?
Trans people can have their own events. Thats not unfair, or discriminatory.

carrier

Of course biological traits limit your path.

A vet couldn't over look the fact you weigh 34 stone just because you feel like a jockey. Youd be too heavy for a horse.

Being a 94 year old suffering from severe arthritis would also stop you being a marathon runner no matter "feelz"

If you are blind you'd not be allowed to drive a race car for formula one.

You can't be this stupid?

Can we omit the insults?
I went through the same sort of thought process, Carrierwave, but actually, in things involving bodies and involving consent, the inside of someone's head or even their 'soul' is secondary to their actual sex.

It makes sense to divide the population on sex and body type for some things.

It makes very little sense to divide it on interior gender identity for anything.

Ok my apologies

Not sure that the name calling is necessary. I have been respectful and patient with your posts.

I don't think anyone anywhere ever has identified to the deepest core of their sole as a jockey (the hats are daft for one), or an arthritic runner or a car driver. These are things a person can be if they wish to (look up Jessica Cox the pilot if you would like to see triumph over nay sayers).

I will never ever advocate discriminate against a person for something they cannot help, not matter how brisk you are with me.

You don't think people grow up with a love of all things horse?

Why is woman up for grabs as a costume. If I identify as a man should I not have a smear test?

Also on the 5-sigma thing:

If DH suddenly decided he was trans, he would be rather taller than most natal women. In fact, there would only be one woman in this country taller than he is (I looked it up!).

So, technically he falls into a possible range of heights for natal women, but I think he would have something of an advantage in basketball that no amount of testosterone-lowering would outweigh.

Do heavy periods, breast cancer, miscarriage etc go away because of how a person identifies?

But people are treated differently because of their physical characteristics for very good reasons. That's not discrimination though. Why would it be? If a trans woman athlete wants to compete she can compete against men. Stopping her competing would be discrimination, but putting her in the appropriate physical category isn't

carrierwaveonly
It is not discrimination to have seperate events for trans people, men and women.

Why are you happy to discriminate against women by ending womens sports? Dont do that and pretend to be egalitarian.

Hey, don't diss dressage. The bond between rider and horse is invaluable. Also, it's the only sport I can think of right now where women compete with men and beat them.

This seems so bizarre to me. The qualification for competing in women’s Sport is being a biological woman. Nothing else makes sense; the clue is in the name.

You could not imagine a situation where a 100 kg oarsman decided he felt light and should thus compete in the lightweight division. This seems quite similar.

If this were really embraced it would be the end of women’s sport.

Out of interest carrier I notice this is the only thread on mumsnetters you've ever been on - what drew you to mumsnetters and this thread in particular, especially since by your own admission you don't even like sport particularly.

Physical reality restricts every part of your everyday life yet for some reason over looking the fact someone has male hormones and male strength and probabky a penis too is over looked.

I've wanted long black hair ir my whole life..ive cut it I've dyed it but when the roots grow through....

I have a dd who's a great gymnast and a good swimmer and a great cricketer. The idea she wouldn't get recognised for this the second a boy decides he wants in...well....

Stopping her competing would be discrimination, but putting her in the appropriate physical category isn't

Yes. If a heavyweight boxer really wanted to be in the featherweight category because they didn't 'feel' built like a brick shit house 'on the inside', would they be allowed?

carrier

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to think through things, and think deeply. The things I would come back with in answer to your thoughts, are these:

1. While there certainly are people who experience great distress because they feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, until recently this was treated as a mental health condition, like other types of body dysphoria. Help was given to people suffering from this dysphoria; counselling, medication if necessary to treat other comorbidities, and transition too if necessary. I know there are people who felt more comfortable, and less dyphoric once they had changed their lifestyle, appearence and dress. There are others, however, who did not find that this solved even most of their problems and distress.

1. The idea of a female mind in male body essentially requires a person to believe in a soul, or some sort of fundamental split between mind and body. While people are free to believe in this, the question of whether this belief should be legislated to the extent where people are not allowed to deny it, is more complicated. For example, my Muslim friends are at perfect liberty under the law to believe Allah is the only true god, but it does not require me to affirm that belief, and non-affirmation is not considered hateful or confrontational in and of itself.

1. Of course you are not only your chromosomes, but that doesn’t mean that they have not dictated an enormous quantity of things about you. For example, if you think coriander tastes like soap, that’s genetic. Particularly relevant to this discussion is that chromosomes make you female. Your femaleness does dictate a lot about you, things which you have no control over. Ovaries, uterus, vagina, vulva - your chromosomes are responsible for all that. Heavy periods? Hereditary breast cancer? Genetic. The distribution of fat around your body (nothing personal!), the frequency of your blinking. All of this is genetically determined. Females, on average, are less tall, less strong than males. We’re the ones who carry and breastfeed the babies. It is because of this femaleness that we are vulnerable to male attack, and also still suffer from disadvantage in a world mostly built by men. The protection that women need is to do with our female bodies, whether or not we are drawn to things usually associated with femininity. Of course not all these things are applicable to all women; some women can’t or don’t have babies, some women are tall and strong, some women (I envy them) don’t have period pain.

But, there are protections in law for female people, which recognise the differences between male and female (not between masculinity and femininity). These include, but are not limited to: women’s prisons; women’s refuges; the right to request a female HCP (I believe men can also ask for a male practitioner); the right not to be asked about relationships, family or plans for pregnancy in a job interview.

I would hazard that almost all people posting on the MN Feminist chat boards feel great sympathy towards people who experience hatred of or discomfort in their own bodies, and also towards the people who feel as if their personalities do not fit with the stereotypes assigned to their sex. I know I have also read a lot of help and comfort offered to parents of children who do not conform to stereotypes of the sexes. However, the answer to these problems is not to throw all sex-based protections out of the window to appease a small yet alarmingly vocal minority, who claim womanhood yet seem to retain all the unpleasant trappings of male entitlement: arrogance, violence, and in many cases, a hatred of the women they allegedly wish to join.

Also, back once again to sport: it is not discrimination to say to someone - you have a male body, so you cannot compete in this sport with the female bodied athletes (unless you want to do dressage, and then go right ahead because that’s mixed anyway).

Also, sorry for monster post.

"narrative I can boil down to one simple question; what if?
A thought experiment i've been running in my head is, what if it's true? What if the person inside a trans women really is a woman, the same as my mum or me or anyone else? If it is true can you imagine what it must feel like? What if the person at the controls really is female? No one ever told me whether i would be left or right handed, like or dislike the tastes of certain foods or what my sexual orientation would be. These things we know instinctively. What if trans is the same? In the infinite variety of nature, surely this could be considered a possibility?"

We don't define woman or segregate sports via a feeling.

We don’t define woman or segregate sports via a feeling

Now why didn’t I just say that?