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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sorry, sport and trans again

153 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 12/02/2018 13:04

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

OP posts:
carrierwaveonly · 12/02/2018 16:42

Gileswithachainsaw, I totally respect your opinion. I do disagree though.
I've never researched infant lung capacity i'm afraid, so i will defer to your superior knowledge.

Where do you draw the line though? How do you define a woman? look at what happened to Caster Semenya. A reasonable low Testosterone limit seems to be a fair and measurable way of differentiating.

Trans people aren't going to go away. If we can reconcile with them, and the rest of the human race progress will stagnate.

carrierwaveonly · 12/02/2018 16:42

*can't reconcile

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 16:44

But you can't do that without erasing women's sports that's the whole point

Intersex is not trans and they are fed up of being used every argument to try and justify everything.

Men do not belong in women's sports.

HairyBallTheorem · 12/02/2018 16:44

Yes, exactly Valentine there's a "third gender" (as in from a culture which traditionally recognises this rather than white college kid playing cultural appropriation) transwoman footballer from one of the Pacific island nations who plays men's football for her national team. That's a sportsperson I can admire for doing the right thing.

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 16:45

Woman= adult human female

Hth

BusyCrisps · 12/02/2018 16:46

There probably are loads of trans men competing. They just don't make the headlines for whatever reason.

Or they don't make it to high level because they don't have all the physical advantages of their male co-competitors??

Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 16:47

A reasonable low Testosterone limit seems to be a fair and measurable way of differentiating.

Do you not think "has a vagina" would be an easier indicator?

Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 16:49

Where do you draw the line though? How do you define a woman? look at what happened to Caster Semenya. A reasonable low Testosterone limit seems to be a fair and measurable way of differentiating

Do you really not know if you see a woman? Do you use they pronouns until someone tells you what they are? Do you not know who you are interested in sexually? If you aren't bisexual do you not have some genital preference? Do you have pets, are you sure of their sex? Do you know milk comes from cows?

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 16:49

And no one wants trans people to go away.

We just don't want them taking the place of biological women in sports or being able to use women's safe spaces whilst in full possession of a penis and testicles.

The mere fact they feel they even have the right to is a perfect demonstration of male entitlement

Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 16:51

I'm going to get deleted but it has to be said. I'm so sick of this bullshit big eyes, I have no way of knowing what sex that himan is based on their genitals. no one is that stupid. Humans and all animals have always known what sex the other one is. there is no coincidence that women get raped, not because they have "lady gender" but because they have breasts and a vagina.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 12/02/2018 16:55

Where do you draw the line though? How do you define a woman? look at what happened to Caster Semenya. A reasonable low Testosterone limit seems to be a fair and measurable way of differentiating.

Caster Semenya is intersex which is nothing to do with being transgender.

And low testosterone levels mean nothing if you have longer legs, are taller, have a bigger lung capacity, bigger hands/longer arms etc etc etc.

How do you define woman? How do you know you are a woman?

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 16:58

Is it time for

We all know what a woman is
We all came out of one.

?

carrierwaveonly · 12/02/2018 16:59

Do you really not know if you see a woman? Do you use they pronouns until someone tells you what they are? Do you not know who you are interested in sexually? If you aren't bisexual do you not have some genital preference? Do you have pets, are you sure of their sex? Do you know milk comes from cows?

You will think i am lying but in answer to your questions:
Never presume - it costs nothing and makes no difference to me, yes i do try to although i slip sometimes, none of your business i'm afraid. don't have pets we live in a small flat. No idea how to sex a goldfish anyways. and yes, goats too i am told.

I don't think Caster Semenya is intersex as far as i am aware. Happy to be corrected if i am wrong.

LangCleg · 12/02/2018 17:00

TIMs can either compete with the men or the Paralympics can get a category for the endocrine oppressed. I don't care which.

MrGHardy · 12/02/2018 17:01

Carrier "Is it science though? "

That's my point, I did write "this isn’t science yet".

You sound incredibly naive. They are forcing their way in. They are forcing sports organisations to make up rules to satisfy the trans agenda before we actually have any clue what is going on. And it doesn't matter what the motivation is from men to become women and start a sporting career - every TW that gets a scholarship, wins a medal, means an actual woman losing out. That is erasure of women's sport.

rowdywoman1 · 12/02/2018 17:01

Gileswithachainsaw

Agreed. Let's keep it simple! Below is an example fo the lengths some born men will go to to access women's sport:

Here you are:
www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/17/jailed-transgender-fell-runner-thought-uk-athletics-was-trying-to-kill-her

Lauren Jeska was a born male who transitioned and then ran in women's fell running competitions without disclosing their status. They were VERY successful (surprise surprise) . When it became known that they were transgender, UK Athletics asked them to take blood tests to establish their testosterone levels, Jeska took two large knives and attempted to murder a senior official in UKA. He is now permanently disabled. Jeska has an 18 year prison sentence with the judge stating that they still present a serious threat to society.

The article is frustrating as the parents see UKA as being 'responsible' for Jeska's actions. But it paints a fascinating picture of a mentally unwell born male determined to compete as a woman at all costs.

titchy · 12/02/2018 17:03

If they rely on their sport for income it must be hard.

Pre-transition they're NOWHERE near good enough to earn money from their sport!

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 12/02/2018 17:09

There's always one.

IdaDown · 12/02/2018 17:11

DH has a theory that nothing (sporting) will change till a transgender (MtF) wins something with big prize money attached eg Wimbledon.

The sports media aren’t interested and people aren’t aware yet, or think it’s only ‘fringe’ sports that are affected.

Try telling that to female athletes who bust their femballs to get where their at, only to have their medal chances stripped.

And I’ve never been able to find anything re the IOCs decision to allow the c9 / 10 nmol testosterone level. Women have about 2nmol - above that we have fertility problems, facial hair etc...

^^

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 12/02/2018 17:12

Alternatively, if the peers of the individual were happy to compete against them by a majority vote i guess that would be a fair benchmark too.

How happy does this peer on the left hand side of the picture look? Gee that Trans-identified male athlete competing against women sure looks atrophied to me.

Sorry, sport and trans again
Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 17:12

none of your business i'm afraid

Well the answer is "none, I'm not transphobic" surely?

Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 17:15

You should be proud to announce that, why would you hide the answer?

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 17:24

You gotta love how people are prepared to ignore something that toddlers can point put from the moment they speak. Boy. Girl.

They know toilets at pre school and everything.

Yet adults are prepared to pretend they don't know about basic biology.

We know they are pretending or there would be crowds of people stood outside toilets scratching their heads not knowing wtf to do or where to go.

You know.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 12/02/2018 17:40

Yet adults are prepared to pretend they don't know about basic biology.

We know they are pretending or there would be crowds of people stood outside toilets scratching their heads not knowing wtf to do or where to go.

Yes. And if its such a minefield, how over history have certain humans know to rape, assault, kidnap, murder, deny education to, deny the vote to, pay less to, certain other humans? And they have never seemed to 'slip up' on it either....... Amazing. Hmm

RadicalFern · 12/02/2018 17:52

carrier I think one of the problems here is that, while transwomen are allowed to competre with females with a testosterone level of below 10 nmol/L (which is at the lower edge of what is actually normal for males - 9-38 nmol/L), the average range for females is 0.52–2.4 nmol/L. That’s a significant difference.

Also, as others have said, men and women of the same height have very different bodies - as just one example men have a lung capacity 10-15% greater than women of the same height - that’s 10-15% more oxygen going into the blood, allowing them to go harder and longer.

Of course, some of sport is inherently “unfair.” Not everyone gets to win. Most of the population is not fast enough, not strong enough to even dream of competing. However, even within the elite, we draw distinctions. Boxing, and martial arts have weight classes, because it is recognised that you can’t just have the heaviest people squashing everyone else (And this also recognises the different way in which the matches pan out in the different weight classes). This is also why men don’t compete against women. So, to allow someone with a testosterone level maybe more than five times that of an average female, and a male skeleton, and male socialization, training and development, to compete against other female athletes, on their say-so that they are a woman, is understandably causing concern.

As an example not to do with trans - do you remember when Oscar Pistorius wanted to compete in the Olympics - there was a proper and serious investigation into whether or not his blades gave him an unfair advantage against runners with feet. In that case “but he really wants to, surely room can be made for everyone?” was not something that was taken into account. The question is, does this athlete have an unfair advantage over the athletes against whom they will be competing.

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